February 20, 1919 — Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee, US Senate, Washington DC

 

Senator [Lee Slater] Overman. The subcommittee will come to order. Miss Bryant will be heard now. Miss Bryant, do you believe in God and in the sanctity of an oath?
Miss Bryant. Certainly I believe in the sanctity of an oath.

Senator King. Do you believe there is a God?
Miss Bryant. I suppose there is a God. I have no way of knowing.

Senator Nelson. Do you believe in the Christian religion?
Miss Bryant. Certainly not. I believe all people should have whatever religion they wish, because that is one of the things —

Senator Nelson. You are not a Christian, then?
Miss Bryant. I was christened in the Catholic church.

Senator Nelson. What are you now, a Christian?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I suppose that I am.

Senator Nelson. And you do not believe in Christ?
Miss Bryant. I did not say that I did not believe in Christ.

Senator Nelson. But do you believe in Christ?
Miss Bryant. I believe in the teachings of Christ, Senator Nelson.

Senator Overman. Do you believe in God?
Miss Bryant. Yes, I will concede that I believe in God, Senator Overman.

Senator King. This is important, because a person who has no conception of God does not have any idea of the sanctity of an oath, and an oath would be meaningless.

Senator Wolcott. Do you believe in a punishment hereafter and a reward for duty?
Miss Bryant. It seems to me as if I were being tried for witchcraft.

Senator Overman. It is not, at all.
Miss Bryant. I did not hear any other witness put through such an ordeal.

Senator Overman. It is not an ordeal. It is the ordinary procedure in court to see if a witness appreciates the sanctity of an oath.
Miss Bryant. Very well; I will concede — I will concede that there is a hell.

vSenator Wolcott. I did not ask you that.
Miss Bryant. Or that there is a life hereafter.

TESTIMONY OF LOUISE BRYANT.

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.)

Miss Bryant. I certainly do; and I wish to state that I have come before this committee at my own request.

Senator Overman. Now, I want to find out about matters in Russia and what you observed there. What is your name?
Miss Bryant. I will be glad to give you my name and my ancestry or anything you wish. My name is Mrs. John Reed. My legal name is Louise Bryant. In New York State a woman can keep her pen name for her legal name. That is the name that I have used as a correspondent for many years.

Senator Overman. Louise Bryant; and your real name is?
Miss Bryant. Mrs. John Reed. Just the same as Mrs. George Cram Cook has used the name of Susan Glaspell, her pen name, and Mary Heaton Vorse, who is Mrs. O’Brien.

Senator Overman. If you will answer the questions as we ask them of you, we can get along much better.
Miss Bryant. Senator Overman, I know that I have certain rights as an American citizen. I know that I can answer these questions to the best of my ability, and that no previous witness has been stopped, and if you stop me you do not give me a fair trial.

Senator Wolcott. You are not on trial.
Miss Bryant. I feel us if I were.

Senator King. You asked to come here, and we can hear you or not, as we prefer. We will ask you certain questions and you can answer them as you please.

Senator Overman. Your home is in New York?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. Where have you been living since you have been in Washington?
Miss Bryant. I stopped for a while at the National Women’s Party headquarters, and then I went to the Capitol Park Hotel, where I am at present.

Senator Overman. You got up this meeting here in Washington?
Miss Bryant. I did not. I have requests, and all people coming from Russia have more requests than they can answer, to tell what they know about Russia, because people are anxious to know the truth about Russia. That was only one of many meetings at which I spoke.

Senator Nelson. You said that you were at the National Women’s Party headquarters?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator Nelson. Did you belong to the picket squad?
Miss Bryant. I do not know what that has to do with the truth about Russia, but I did. I believe in equality for women as well as for men, even in my own country.

Senator Nelson. Did you participate in the burning of the President’s message?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. You did not participate in the burning in effigy?
Miss Bryant. I did; and I went on a hunger strike.

Senator Overman. What do you mean by that; you went to jail?
Miss Bryant. I went to jail and went on a hunger strike. If you go without food and become weak, the authorities let you out because they do not want you to die in prison.

Senator King. Where did you live before you lived in New York? You lived in Oregon, did you not?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator King. And were the wife of a dentist there?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. I wish you would let me, please, tell you something about Russia.

Senator King. We want to know something about the character of the person who testifies, so that we can determine what credit to give to the testimony. Then, you afterwards married Mr. Reed?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator King. And you and Mr. Reed went to Russia?
Miss Bryant. We did.

Senator King. You swore down in the State Department before you went to Russia that you would not engage in political propaganda there?
Miss Bryant. I did; and I kept my word.

Senator King. You have answered my question?
Miss Bryant. I did.

Senator King. You engaged in political propaganda there?
Miss Bryant. I did not engage in political propaganda. I made certain reports to Col. Robins.

Senator King. You participated in meetings of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Please prove that, will you, that I participated in soviet meetings?

Senator King. You participated in Bolshevik meetings?
Miss Bryant. How did I? I took down notes as a reporter.

Senator King. Just answer the question.
Miss Bryant. No, sir; I did not.

Senator King. You were present at those meetings?
Miss Bryant. Certainly; all the reporters were.

Senator King. And your husband and Mr. Albert Rhys Williams were on the staff of the Bolsheviki for the purpose of preparing propaganda for —
Miss Bryant. A revolution in Germany.

Senator King. For the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes; for a revolution in Germany. I must be exact.

Senator Wolcott. Did your husband also, before he left, take the oath that he would not engage in propaganda?
Miss Bryant. My husband is in this audience. Ask him.

Senator Wolcott. I am asking if you know.
Miss Bryant. I wish to refer that to Mr. Reed. I do not have to answer that, and I will not.

Senator Wolcott. I will ask you this: Did your husband in your presence take such an oath, do you know?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he took such an oath, but I will have to explain that Col. Robins was particularly pleased to have him get certain information into Germany through the soviets. He was very glad to have him go into the foreign office.

Senator Wolcott. Your husband, then, in Russia, did engage in Soviet propaganda?
Miss Bryant. My husband in Russia did a great deal toward bringing about the German revolution.

Senator Wolcott. You have not answered my question.
Miss Bryant. That is an answer to your question.

Senator Wolcott. Did your husband when in Russia engage in any political activities?
Miss Bryant. Why, not that I know of, except that he worked in the foreign office.

Senator Nelson. Let me ask this. Was your husband employed by the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator Nelson. Employed for what purpose?
Miss Bryant. He worked in the propaganda department, and I will show you the kind of papers. There has never been any secret about this propaganda. For instance —

Senator Nelson. We do not care about that.
Miss Bryant. You do not care about it?

Senator Nelson. About these papers. We want the facts.
Miss Bryant. Those are the facts. You must admit the facts. Here is a paper printed in German, prepared for sending into the German lines in order to make —

Senator Nelson. Do not be so impertinent.

Senator Overman. I do not want any more noise or we will have an executive session and close this meeting. I want to treat this lady respectfully.
Miss Bryant. I hope you will.

Senator Overman. We want to get the facts, to examine her according to law, but I want her, at the same time.

Miss Bryant. You said, Senator Overman, that I am not on trial here. I am a free American citizen. I expect to be treated with the same courtesy as former witnesses, and I have not gotten it so far.

Senator Wolcott. Mr. Chairman, I am going to suggest that this room be cleared and that no further testimony be taken until the room is cleared.

Miss Bryant. Everybody out? I will not testify unless it is before an open session. It is very necessary that these things be known.
Senator King. The stenographer will be here.

Miss Bryant. All other witnesses testified in open session.

Senator Wolcott. I make this suggestion, that the press reporters remain and the stenographer remain; that the testimony be written up and the witness be allowed to have a copy of it, and anybody else in the public may have a copy of it.
Miss Bryant. May I correct my copy?

Senator Wolcott. But this audience, which persists in applauding, should be invited to leave the room.
Senator Overman. I propose that she have an opportunity to be heard. The stenographer will remain and the newspaper reporters, but the public will go out.

Miss Bryant. May I have the courtesy of going over my remarks?
Senator Overman. You shall have. You shall have the same courtesy as any other witness.

Miss Bryant. I ask that they remain.
Senator Overman. I have ordered them to leave the room.

Miss Bryant. You see, I am the only witness on the other side; the only witness, so far, who wants to bring about amicable relations between Russia and America.

Mr. John Reed. May I stay? I am John Reed, Miss Bryant’s husband.
Senator Overman. Yes. . . Has everybody left except the reporters? If there is anybody here not a reporter, I will ask him to retire. . .

I want it to appear on the record that at the beginning of this hearing a demonstration occurred, and I warned the spectators that if there were any more demonstrations of that kind I would clear the room, and in less than 10 minutes there was a much larger and more vociferous demonstration, and it looked as though we could not proceed with the crowd with this demonstration, and I cleared the room, all except the newspaper reporters and the stenographer, and the testimony of the witness will be put into the record for the world to see.

Senator King. May I ask a question, just in line with what I was asking a moment ago? Mrs. Reed, your husband and Albert Rhys Williams were members of the international revolutionary propaganda under the direction of Boris Reinstein, of Buffalo, N.Y.?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he is now Lenine’s secretary.

Senator King. Lenine’s secretary?
Miss Bryant. At the present moment.

Senator King. He went over from this country?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but he is a Russian.

Senator King. And they worked with other American socialists who are over there, who went over from this country?
Miss Bryant. Yes; there has never been any secret about that.

Senator King. So that your husband and Albert Rhys Williams were propagandists there for the international revolutionary propaganda?
Miss Bryant. I would not quite exactly say that. You have to specify. I know that they worked in that office, and I put it into my book. If I had intended to cover up anything, I would not have done that.

Senator King. You have stated this, have you not? Next door was the newly founded Bureau of International Revolutionary Propaganda, under the head of Boris Reinstein of Buffalo, N.Y. —
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator King (continuing reading . . . ) where also worked two other American Socialists, John Reed and Albert Rhys Williams.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator King. So that your husband and Mr. Albert Rhys Williams were connected with the International Revolutionary Propaganda?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but they had very particular work to do. I think the committee ought certainly to understand this. That is why I brought these papers. It is the only evidence to prove what they did.

Senator King. I was asking if they belonged?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I would not have written it if they had not, and they never have denied it. In fact, if you will permit, Mr. Reed will explain the whole thing.

Senator King. In that department was a man named Radek?
Miss Bryant. Radek; yes.

Senator King. Who is now under arrest in Germany because of his efforts there to create revolution, and to lead the Spartacides to murder, and to destruction of the form of government which Ebert has formed?
Miss Bryant. I do not follow you at all.

Senator King. He is in Germany?
Miss Bryant. To the best of my knowledge. I do not know, except what I have read in the papers.

Senator King. And he was there for the purpose of aiding the Spartacides?
Miss Bryant. I suppose so; but I must tell you — I must explain. You see, the Ebert government worked in harmony with the Kaiser, and the Spartacides. with Liebnecht at the head, were always against him, and Radek, of course, naturally worked with the Spartacides and did not work with the Ebert government, for Ebert, to him, is no different than the Kaiser.

Senator King. But the Kaiser has abdicated, and the Ebert government has taken charge under an election by the people of Germany, and Radek has tried to destroy that government, and he left the Spartacides to overthrow the existing government in Germany. Is that true or not? Answer yes or no.
Miss Bryant. I can not answer yes or no. I will say that he is there, and is against the Ebert government, of course, because they (the Spartacides) do not trust the Ebert government; they fight with the Ebert government, and would as soon have the Kaiser back.

Senator King. But they are trying to destroy the Ebert government?
Miss Bryant. I suppose they are.

Senator King. You, of course, knew of your husband’s propaganda work in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Of course I did.

Senator King. And participated with him in that work?
Miss Bryant. Oh, I object when you say propaganda work. May I be allowed an explanation?

Senator King. Very well, you participated with him in propaganda work?
Miss Bryant. I never did.

Senator King. When did you leave Russia?
Miss Bryant. I left after the Constituent Assembly had been dissolved.

Senator King. What date?
Miss Bryant. That was in the latter part of January.

Senator King. Of last year, 1918?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator King. You then went to Stockholm?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator King. And you carried with you when you went to Stockholm this statement or passport given by the Bolshevik government, did you?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I did. I went as a courier.

Senator King (reading. . .)

This is a given to a representative of the American Social Democracy, and internationalist and comrade — Louise Bryant.

Miss Bryant. Yes.
Senator King (reading. . . )

The military revolutionary committee of the Petrograd Council of Workers’ and Soldiers’ Deputies gives her the right of free travel —

Miss Bryant. No; that is another. There are two passes. One is a reporter’s pass to the front.

Senator King. You are denominated a “comrade” by the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. All persons in Russia are comrades who are not enemies, so that has no significance. Just as in the French revolution people were called citizens, in the Russian revolution they are called comrades.

Senator King. Would they have called a representative of this country “comrade”?
Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Robins was called “comrade.”

Senator King. Would they call Mr. Francis “comrade”?
Miss Bryant. Mr. Francis was not popular in Russia and they did not think that he represented America. They thought Col. Robins did.

Senator Nelson. Who thought so?
Miss Bryant. The Russian people very largely; all the Russian people felt that Col. Robins was a true representative of America; that he was a more representative American than Ambassador Francis was. They considered Mr. Francis to be an old man, entirely out of sympathy with the revolutionary movement.

Senator Wolcott. And they felt that he — Mr. Robins — was in sympathy with the revolutionists?
Miss Bryant. Not exactly; but they felt that Mr. Francis was hostile to the Socialists, and they felt that Robins was the better man to bring about amicable relations.

Senator Nelson. Did you not know that Mr. Robins was not the representative of our country?
Miss Bryant. Col. Robins was the head of the Red Cross there.

Senator Nelson. But the Red Cross did not represent our Government.
Miss Bryant. Nevertheless, we worked with Col. Robins. In fact, Col. Robins acted as the intermediary between Ambassador Francis and the soviets, because Francis felt that he could not get in touch with them, that there was a certain feeling of hostility, and so Robins went to them in place of Francis, and if you will call Robins he will tell you all this himself.

Senator Wolcott. Do you know where he is?
Miss Bryant. He is in New York, and I know absolutely that he is very anxious to testify before this committee, and he has not been asked.

Senator Wolcott. What is his address?
Miss Bryant. Care of his sister, Mary Dryer. I could get him myself on short notice.

Senator King. I want to call attention to one other matter. You had a certificate, did you not, dated January 7, 1918, as follows (reading . . . )

The bearer of this certificate, Louise Bryant, is going to Stockholm as a courier of the People’s Commissar of Foreign Affairs and is taking along sealed bags and packages. It is requested that all those in authority show her assistance on her journey, and particularly with her baggage.

Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator King (continuing reading. . . )

Assistant to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Zalkind. Stamp of the People’s Commissar of Foreign Affairs. Now, you have such a certificate?

Miss Bryant. I had such a certificate.

Senator King. That was issued by the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. There was no one else to issue it.

Senator King. You were called a courier of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes. sir.

Senator King. “The People’s Commissar” of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Will you please let me explain?

Senator King. You were authorized by the Bolshevik government to take such bags and packages, and were denominated their courier, so that when you came to this country you came as a courier of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. I did not. I explained all that in my book, and that is a matter —

Senator King. We will come to that. Did your duties as courier cease when you got to Stockholm?
Miss Bryant. Of course; yes.

Senator King. But you were a detailed courier as the representative of the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Not a courier to anybody. The fact was that there was only one way to get through the fighting lines, and that was to go as a courier. So they gave couriers’ papers to a number of Americans that went there. Prof. Ross went as a courier, and Madeline Doty, and Miss Bessie Beatty put her papers in her bag, so that they would not be molested. And I brought things like this [indicating], because I wanted to come home and write my books and articles, and I did not want them to be taken away from me.

Senator King. Did your husband go with you?
Miss Bryant. No; he came later.

Senator King. When did you come to the United States?
Miss Bryant. In March.

Senator King. When did Mr. Reed come?
Miss Bryant. About four months later.

Senator King. When did Mr. Albert Rhys Williams come to the United States?
Miss Bryant. He came very much later. He has not been here very long — just about two months.

Senator King. Mr. Williams was there engaged in propaganda work?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes.

Senator King. And since he came here he has been engaged in propaganda work, has he not?
Miss Bryant. Now, if you just let me answer “yes” or “no” I do not tell you anything.

Senator Overman. I think she is entitled to explain.
Senator King. Mr. Williams came to the United States after he had been in the employ of the revolutionary government, the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Yes; Mr. Williams was organizing the foreign legion, which was organized to fight the incoming Germans, after the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, but most all the foreigners and war prisoners in Russia did not believe in the invasion of Germany into Russia, but Mr. Williams organized that foreign legion and that was one of his last activities in Russia.

Senator Overman. You said you wanted to explain.
Miss Bryant. Yes; Mr. Williams came back to this country with a paper which was read by the naval intelligence or the military intelligence, I do not know which, and which they have since returned to him, saying that he had come to open a bureau of information for the soviet government, in order to bring about more amicable relations and to tell the truth. He never has denied that.

Senator King. He is the representative, then, of the soviet government?
Miss Bryant. He is not a representative. He is simply a man who wants to open an information bureau, but Mr. Williams can tell you about that better than I can.

Senator Overman. Is he employed by the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. I do not imagine he is in their employ. I imagine he does it just to give information to people who want to know about Russia.

Senator Overman. You said your husband was in the employment of the Bolshevik government.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. Were you in their employ?
Miss Bryant. I was never in their employ.

Senator Overman. But your husband was?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. What salary was being paid him?
Miss Bryant. The same salary which they all got — the same salary as Lenine and Trotzky — $50 a month.

Senator Overman. And what they could pick up on the side?
Miss Bryant. No; they could not pick up anything. It was very dangerous, Senator Overman, to “pick up” anything in Russia.

Senator Wolcott. They picked up hotels and palaces.
Miss Bryant. Why do you say that? You were not there and I was.

Senator Wolcott. We have had testimony here that they lived in beautiful palaces and rode in Pierce-Arrow automobiles.
Miss Bryant. I do not know of any that lived in palaces after the soviets came into power. I knew Trotzky quite well, and I know that he lived with the utmost frugality.

Senator Overman. Did you know him before you left here?
Miss Bryant. No; I met him simply as any reporter would, in Russia. I used to go to Smolny Institute and to his office and ask him if he would tell me about current events in Russia, which he very gladly did.

Senator Overman. What did you go to Russa for?
Miss Bryant. For the Metropolitan Magazine and the Philadelphia Public Ledger and a number of magazines.

Senator Overman. Are you a correspondent for that paper now?
Miss Bryant. I am not now. I am a foreign correspondent. I mean I was in France before and then I went to Russia.

Senator Overman. What foreign papers do you correspond for?
Miss Bryant. Not for foreign papers. I am an American correspondent and go to foreign countries and write about conditions in foreign countries. My articles were sold by the Ledger and printed in conservative papers in almost every city in the United States and in Canada and in South America — these very same articles you are reading here.

Senator Overman. Suppose you tell us what the condition in Russia is under this Bolshevik government.
Miss Bryant. I will be very glad to do it.

Senator Sterling. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Humes ask such questions as he cares to and then that the witness make any general statements that the committee feels proper.

Senator Overman. I think she wants to tell us about Russia.
Miss Bryant. I want to tell you about one thing before anything else — about the so-called nationalization of women, which has been so largely discussed here. You see, I was particularly interested in how women would act under the revolutionary government in Russia, because I had always known that Russian women had gone to Siberia, as many as the men, and sometimes more, and that they were particularly interested in freedom, and I wondered how they would act. I was particularly interested, so naturally I feel very badly that we are so confused over these decrees, because the decrees —

Senator Overman. Do not go into that.
Miss Bryant (continuing . . . ) The decree of Saratov. I have got to go into that before I can explain anything to you.

Senator Overman. Was there a decree about the nationalization of women?
Miss Bryant. There was a decree, but it is not true that there was a soviet decree.

Senator Overman. That is all we want to know, whether it was true or not.
Miss Bryant. That can not be all you want to know, because all the other witnesses went to great length to tell you it was true.

Senator Overman. They said there was such a decree, and furnished a copy of it.
Miss Bryant. By an anarchist club in Saratov.

Senator Overman. You say that was not issued by the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. No. I want to say, Senator Overman, further, that anarchists of the sort that would issue such a decree who were not imprisoned were shot for issuing this decree and for other disorders, and surely no one here would want a more severe punishment meted out to them.

Mr. Humes. Is Izvestija an official paper of the soviet government?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but everything printed in it does not mean that the soviets agree to it.

Mr. Humes. Have you seen a decree on the nationalization of women which was published in Izvestija?
Miss Bryant. I think it is just exactly what I have here.

Mr. Humes. Whom was it signed by?
Miss Bryant. I am mistaken; I do not have it here, but I will tell you about it. The decree of Saratov had nothing to do with the soviets.

Mr. Humes. I am not talking about Saratov; I am talking about a decree that was published in the official soviet organ, the Izvestija.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Have you seen that decree?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but not in the Izvestija.

Mr. Humes. Was that decree not published with the authority of the soviet government?
Miss Bryant. No; that decree was published — you see, for instance, Maj. Humes, if the American Government would publish something and say it was the work of a certain anarchist club, that it was the work of a certain group of anarchists, that would not mean that the United States Government approved of the action of that club.

Mr. Humes. I am not talking about an anarchist decree.
Miss Bryant. There never was a soviet decree.

Mr. Humes. You say the Izvestija did not publish a decree in which, among other things, the following was contained . . . A girl having reached her eighteenth year is to be announced as the property of the state. Any girl having reached her eighteenth year and not having married is obliged, subject to the most severe penalty, to register at the bureau of free love in the commissariat of surveillance. Was that ever published in Izvestija?
Miss Bryant. I rend such a decree, but not in Izvestija.

Mr. Humes. Just answer the question and explain afterwards. Was not that published in Izvestija?
Miss Bryant. I can give you an explanation.

Mr. Humes. What was the explanation?
Miss Bryant. The explanation is that it was not a soviet decree and —

Mr. Humes. Have you got the paper in which those explanations appear?
Miss Bryant. No; but I have a very important statement here, issued very recently by the head of the Y.M.C.A., saying that he himself — I refer to Mr. Davis — investigated the whole thing, and that he was in Saratov at the time.

Mr. Humes. Let us get away from Saratov.
Miss Bryant. Vladimir also; and it is the same thing in both towns. I have the statement which he issued, and I certainly believe he knows what he was talking about.

Senator Wolcott. Let me interject a question. What paper was that statement of the Y.M.C.A. man published in?
Miss Bryant. The copy I have here was published in the New York Call.

Mr. Humes. When was the statement made?
Miss Bryant. The statement was made, I suppose, day before yesterday. It was in yesterday’s Call.

Senator Sterling. A Socialist paper?
Miss Bryant. But Davis was the head of the Y.M.C.A. in Russia, and I suppose it was printed in a good many other papers, but I do not know.

Mr. Humes. Mr. Davis has been defending the soviet government and the Bolshevik government of Russia since his return to this country?
Miss Bryant. A great many heads of departments also have done more or less the same thing. It is the undersecretaries of the Y.M.C.A. and various organizations and the bank clerks who have been against it.

Mr. Humes. When did you secure your passport to leave this country for Russia?
Miss Bryant. In August; early in August.

Mr. Humes. In 1917?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. When did you sail?
Miss Bryant. I believe it was on the 9th; I am not sure.

Mr. Humes. The 9th of August?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. When did you arrive in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I arrived —

Mr. Humes. I mean approximately.
Miss Bryant. Early in September.

Mr. Humes. Where did you arrive, at Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. It was just at the time of the Korniloff revolt. I came through Finland — around that way.

Mr. Humes. You arrived in Russia while the Kerensky government was in power?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. In September?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. You were there for a time up until the revolution of October, or rather November?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I was there a long time after that.

Mr. Humes. You were there before that time?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Were you in Petrograd during all of that time?
Miss Bryant. A good deal of the time.

Mr. Humes. Where else were you?
Miss Bryant. In Moscow.

Mr. Humes. How long were you in Moscow?
Miss Bryant. I went there at the time of the street fighting. I wanted to go down and get the story, and I went down there at the time the fiercest fighting was on.

Mr. Humes. At the time of the internal disorders?
Miss Bryant. Yes; at the time of the internal disorders the fiercest street fighting took place in Moscow, and I went down.

Mr. Humes. That was while the civil war and rioting was in progress in Moscow?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. How long were you there?
Miss Bryant. Three or four days, and then I went back to Petrograd.

Mr. Humes. Then you went back to Petrograd. When was that with reference to the time the Bolsheviki revolution broke out?
Miss Bryant. I was in Petrograd at the time the Bolshevik revolution broke out.

Mr. Humes. How long before that time had you been there?
Miss Bryant. I had been there since I came to Russia.

Mr. Humes. I mean between the time you left Moscow until the —
Miss Bryant. Well, you see, I did not go down to Moscow until after the Bolshevik revolution began.

Mr. Humes. You were in Petrograd continually up until the Bolshevik revolution?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. And that occurred early in November, according to our calendar?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. How long after the Bolshevik revolution and the Bolshevik régime did you remain in Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. I stayed until after the constituent assembly.

Mr. Humes. When did they meet?
Miss Bryant. They met in January.

Mr. Humes. In January, 1918?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Then when did you leave Russia for Stockholm as a courier?
Miss Bryant. I just said I left in January, the latter part of January.

Senator Wolcott. You say the constituent assembly was in January, 1918?
Miss Bryant. Yes; the 6th of January.

Senator Sterling. Where did it meet?
Miss Bryant. It met in Petrograd.

Mr. Humes. The constituent assembly met in January and was dissolved by the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Do you remember the date?
Miss Bryant. Not exactly, but if you want the exact dates I have them in my book.

Mr. Humes. I do not want it exactly, but just approximately.
Miss Bryant. I am a reporter and go a good deal on my notes, but I think it was January 6, 1918.

Mr. Humes. Were you present at the time of its dissolution?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir; I was present at the dissolution of the constituent assembly.

Mr. Humes. It was dissolved forcibly, was it not?
Miss Bryant. I do not know that you would call it forcibly. It was held in a room like this, and a couple of sailors stepped in and said, “All the good people have gone home; why don’t you go?” And they went.

Mr. Humes. Were they armed?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir; the two sailors were armed, You see the politicians sat around and everybody else had gone home.

Mr. Humes. Was there any constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. That was the constituent assembly.

Mr. Humes. There was not any other constituent assembly while you were there?
Miss Bryant. No; the idea seemed to be very dead, and it did not seem as though the adherents had vitality to do anything more.

Senator King. Did you see any other armed forces there at that time besides these two sailors?
Miss Bryant. Yes; there were guards around the palace.

Senator King. They were around the building there, were they?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Petrograd was under martial law.

Senator King. They were Bolshevik guards, were they not?
Miss Bryant. Yes; Lettish guards.

Senator Sterling. Lettish, did you say, Miss Bryant?
Miss Bryant. Yes; some were Letts.

Mr. Humes. Was anybody killed in the dissolution of the constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. No. Some one was killed before then in some sort of demonstration, but not —

Mr. Humes. Some member of the constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. No; not a member of the constituent assembly.

Mr. Humes. How many guards were around there outside of the constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. I do not know.

Mr. Humes. The only armed men you saw on the inside were those two sailors?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and the sailors that were standing by the door.

Mr. Humes. How many people were in the room at the time the two sailors came in?
Miss Bryant. The hall was not as crowded as it was at the beginning, because after the soviet defenders read their challenge and the right wing of the constituent assembly did not agree to it, they, the left wing, got up and went out, and the right wing stayed there and discussed the situation. They talked and talked until about 2 o’clock in the morning, and the sailors stayed there, and seemed to get more sleepy and more bored with the whole thing, and finally they came in and asked the politicians to go home.

Mr. Humes. Was there any business being transacted?
Miss Bryant. No, there was not; they were simply talking about what they had intended to do. The constituent assembly had fallen to pieces. The people, the masses, were weary of politics and left and went over to the revolutionists, the Bolsheviki had bolted the meeting. The masses followed the Bolsheviki.

Mr. Humes. These Bolsheviki and some other revolutionists had bolted the meetings?
Miss Bryant. Yes; the Bolsheviks and the left socialist revolutionists had — the left socialist revolutionists are the largest party in Russia.

Mr. Humes. At that time the provisional government was trying to maintain a constituent assembly, and was trying to organize a permanent government?
Miss Bryant. They, the soviets, were also trying to organize a permanent government, but it was a soviet government.

Mr. Humes. Rather than a representative government?
Miss Bryant. They consider it a representative government.

Mr. Humes. When you got to Russia, what were the food conditions there — when you got to Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. The food conditions were never very good, and, as I understand, they have not been very good since the beginning of the war. Shortly after mobilization began in Russia the railroads were in disorder, and they were right straight along, and so, of course, the suffering was intense from the very beginning of the war.

Mr. Humes. How did you supply yourself with food while you were there?
Miss Bryant. I did not supply myself with food any better than anybody else did. In fact I was hungry a part of the time, and I lived on black bread and cabbage soup and things like that.

Mr. Humes. How did you get it, on food tickets?
Miss Bryant. Why, no. During the Kerensky régime I lived in a Russian boarding house, and the woman who managed it was allotted food tickets for each guest, and she got food in that way for all of us. Later I lived in the government hotel. Since the beginning of the war the correspondents have been treated more or less as guests of the government — that is, they can live in government hotels like the officers.

Mr. Humes. What periodicals did you have credentials to represent?
Miss Bryant. I had credentials from the Metropolitan Magazine, the Ledger, Seven Arts, and Every Week. Every Week is a magazine that has since ceased publication.

Senator Sterling. The Philadelphia Ledger?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator King. Since you left there this last January you have not been back?
Miss Bryant. No.

Senator King. So you know nothing of the conditions since you left, except from hearsay?
Miss Bryant. I know as much as Mr. Bernstein and some of the other witnesses whose testimony I have heard.

Senator King. You know nothing except from hearsay?
Miss Bryant. I know more than hearsay.

Senator Wolcott. Mr. Bernstein was there more recently than that.
Miss Bryant. Well, just a week or two afterwards, because I met him myself in Stockholm and talked to him there.

Senator Wolcott. But he came here and went back.
Miss Bryant. But he went to Siberia, and I am speaking of central Russia.

Senator King. Then what you know as to the conditions there now is hearsay, in the sense that you have not seen the conditions with your own eyes, but have derived your information from somebody else.
Miss Bryant. I know a good deal that is happening now.

Mr. Humes. Where did you get your information?
Miss Bryant. I got it from several places. One place, the Finnish information bureau. Mr. Nuorteva, the head of the bureau, recently sent a letter to Senator Overman, saying he was receiving some funds and information from Russia from time to time, and that he wanted to tell the committee about it. He said, “If there is Bolshevik propaganda, I am it, and I want to testify.”

Senator Overman. Who did that?
Miss Bryant. Mr. Nuorteva, of the Finnish Information Bureau.

Mr. Humes. In other words, you have information you have received from Mr. Nuorteva?
Miss Bryant. Part of it.

Mr. Humes. Did Mr. Nuorteva show you the letter that the former officer of the Bolshevik government wrote to him, in which he told him that the experiment was a failure?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. You have seen that, too, have you?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I have seen that. It is not important. It was the expression of an easily disappointed Socialist, I should say.

Mr. Humes. Have you got any official information from the Bolshevik government? Have they furnished you with official information?
Miss Bryant. No; but I saw some very official information in Col. Robins’s apartment, which he showed to me.

Mr. Humes. Is Col. Robins in official connection with the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. I do not think he is now.

Mr. Humes. You say he has official information in his office?
Miss Bryant. He brought back information which he showed to many of us.

Mr. Humes. When did Col. Robins leave over there?
Miss Bryant. I think some time after I did. I suppose you know when he left. I do not.

Mr. Humes. It was early in 1918 that you left, was it not?
Miss Bryant. I think he stayed longer than that. He certainly stayed until after the embassies left.

Senator King. When I use the word “hearsay,” I think, Miss Bryant, you probably do not get the meaning that lawyers attribute to the word. If I tell you something and then you go out and tell somebody else that I told it to you, that would be hearsay. Now, when I asked you if you had been there, and you said “no,” and I asked you if you knew anything of the conditions there of your own knowledge, obviously, if you were not there you would not know.
Miss Bryant. If I read documents and papers and things of that kind, I would know that.

Senator King. But I asked you if you knew anything about the conditions, of your own knowledge, since you left.
Miss Bryant. I have seen people —

Senator King. You only know what somebody has told you.
Miss Bryant. Yes; except I have read Russian papers.

Senator King. You have answered my question. That is all.
Miss Bryant. I want to answer that I have gotten information from people who were in direct communication with the soviet government. Mr. Nuorteva was allowed by Mr. Polk to send messages to the Bolshevik government about the Prinkipo conference.

Mr. Humes. Is your husband in direct communication with the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. No. The only direct communication I know is what has been sent through the State Department.

Mr. Humes. Was he not appointed by the Bolshevik government as consul general to New York?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he was.

Mr. Humes. Has he been acting in that capacity?
Miss Bryant. No; he did not come here as consul general.

Mr. Humes. Has he undertaken to perform any of the duties of consul general although not recognized?
Miss Bryant. Of course not. I think he was consul general for a period of about four days, but before he was given his passports the whole scheme was changed.

Mr. Humes. He was designated as consul general of the Bolshevik government, at Petrograd, was he not?
Miss Bryant. Yes; certainly. Everybody knows that.

Mr. Humes. Then he accepted that responsibility for the Bolshevik government in that particular, in violation of his sworn promise to the government when he secured his passports, did he not?
Miss Bryant. I think he accepted that with the sanction of our officials there, and I think he can explain it. He can tell you about it better than I can.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that he made that statement at the time he secured his passports?
Miss Bryant. He made a statement. I do not know what he did afterwards to counteract that or what conclusion he came to. I am sure that Col. Robins can tell you, probably even Ambassador Francis, and certainly my husband can.

Senator Overman. You said some time ago that when you came out on your passports you had a certain sealed package. Were they your own papers?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and Miss Beatty’s, who is the niece of Admiral Beatty, of the British Navy. She was with me, and I also took her papers. She is now the editor of McCall’s Magazine, of New York, and was then a correspondent for the San Francisco Bulletin. She came with me, and I kept her papers as well as my own.

Senator Overman. You had no official papers?
Miss Bryant. No. Couriers’ passports were given us just to enable us to pass through the lines.

Senator Sterling. If your husband did accept this position, it would have been in violation, would it not, of his passport and of his obligation as an American citizen?
Miss Bryant. No, sir.

Senator Sterling, It would not?
Miss Bryant. It would not, because — I do not know all the details, but I think his oath only concerned participation in the Stockholm conference, but I wish you would ask him about it. He is in the room, and I suppose you could do it. I am firmly of the opinion that Col. Robins or Ambassador Francis could tell you something about that, and he certainly could. I was not there at the time, you see, so I do not know about it.

Mr. Humes. After the Bolshevik revolution, what were the food conditions?
Miss Bryant. They were just about the same as they always have been.

Mr. Humes. Was there any rioting or fighting in the streets, or the searching of houses, during that period of time?
Miss Bryant. Yes; what was known as “requisitioning” began way back, as far as I can understand, at the time of the Kerensky government. The government used to send notices to the upper-class Russians asking them for shoes, overcoats, and for things like that to send to the destitute soldiers at the front, but they were pro-German and would not support the soldiers in any way. They would not even pretend to do so; they just simply refused to do anything or to obey any of those demands which were sent out under the Kerensky régime, so when the soviets came into power they requisitioned the banks to carry on the revolution in the same way that Benjamin Franklin in our revolution took over His Majesty’s post-office funds, which was the property of the British Government.

Mr. Humes. You mean they confiscated them?
Miss Bryant. They confiscated them, only they nationalized the banks.

Mr. Humes. And they confiscated private property of individuals?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the Red Guards went into the houses of private citizens and demanded money and foodstuffs —
Senator Nelson. And jewelry?

Mr. Humes. And jewelry, clothing, and that sort of thing, and took it by force?
Miss Bryant. I never heard of them demanding jewelry. I do not think they made any demand for that, but they may have taken clothing.

Mr. Humes. Did not the Bolshevik government, by this so-called process of requisitioning, take all of the precious metals they could in the shape of platinum and material of that kind because of its commercial value?
Miss Bryant. I do not believe so; I never came across such an instance.

Mr. Humes. You never saw any of that?
Miss Bryant. I never saw anything of that kind.

Mr. Humes. Did not killings occur on the streets frequently during the time you were there?
Miss Bryant. No; I went around more or less alone all the time and I did not see any killings there on the streets, except once, and that was not an ordinary killing.

Mr. Humes. When was that?
Miss Bryant. It was at the time of the last stand of the officers, when they came down the streets of Petrograd in an armored car and turned it on a group of civilians, of which I was one. I saw that.

Mr. Humes. Was that after the Bolsheviki came in?
Miss Bryant. That was just after the Bolshevik revolution, during a counter-revolution.

Mr. Humes. Did you ever see people starving?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. And falling on the streets?
Miss Bryant. No; I never saw anything like that.

Mr. Humes. Did you ever see horses falling on the streets?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. Did you ever see people there cutting off horse meat for the purpose of food?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. You never saw anything of that kind?
Miss Bryant. I never saw it.

Mr. Humes. Then, from the time of the revolution, in November, up until you left in January, except for a few pangs of hunger that you yourself felt, you never saw any disorders, except the one incident of the motor car that you referred to?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and just the ordinary things that would go with civil war and with fighting. I suffered no more hardships with regard to food than I did when I was in France.

Mr. Humes. How many civil wars have you seen? You say there were just the things that ordinarily go with civil war.
Miss Bryant. I mean that from what history I have read it seems to me that in our own Civil War we suffered a great many privations; and, of course, the Russians had to do the same thing.

Mr. Humes. Then, the privations that are incident to war are to be expected, are they not?
Miss Bryant. Yes; that is what I felt.

Mr. Humes. There is nothing in the privations incident to civil war that warrants any very serious thoughts?
Miss Bryant. I think that an American traveling there would find his stay very uncomfortable, but he could always leave; and I think that is the way the Russians felt about foreigners. I could leave, myself, if I did not like it.

Mr. Humes. You say one could always leave, although it was necessary for you at least to represent yourself to be an official of the government in order to get out.
Miss Bryant. No; you see, this is the situation If I had gone through Siberia, it would not have been necessary; but from the beginning of the revolution — the first revolution — the Finns were fighting the Russians; and when anybody came through Finland they took absolutely everything away, whether it was foodstuffs or whether it was papers. I did not want that to happen to me in Finland. I knew that they respected a courier’s passport, and so when I was ready to leave I simply went to the soviet officials and said, “Can you give me a couriers passport?” and they said, “Yes”; and they did it.

Mr. Humes. Then the situation was this, that it was difficult to get out of Russia through Finland?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Or out of Russia proper to the west, but it was, apparently, easy to get out of Russia to the east, through Siberia?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. When Mr. Reinstein went over did you go over with him?
Miss Bryant. No; I did not know him until I saw him over there.

Mr. Humes. You got there before he did?
Miss Bryant. No; not until much later. He used to teach me Russian.

Mr. Humes. When you got there, did you find him connected with the —
Miss Bryant. Soviet government? No; not at that time.

Mr. Humes. Was he connected with the soviet revolutionary party?
Miss Bryant. No; he was a Menshevik internationalist — a very small party in Russia.

Mr. Humes. When did he become a member of the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. He became connected with it after they tried to bring about the revolution in Germany; he is a student of international affairs, and they wanted him to be the head of the bureau.

Mr. Humes. What was Reinstein’s business?
Miss Bryant. He has always been a writer. I think he wrote for a socialist paper, the Weekly People, over here for a great many years.

Mr. Humes. Living in Buffalo, N.Y.?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I believe so. I did not know him before I went over there.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that his wife is a doctor in Buffalo?
Miss Bryant. Yes; she is.

Mr. Humes. At the same time that you were there, was Mr. Reinstein, with whom you became acquainted, you and your husband?
Miss Bryant. And many other people.

Mr. Humes. What other people from America, or Americans, did you find and get acquainted with while you were in Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. With Arno Dosch-Fleurot, the World man, and especially with Miss Beatty. We were the only two American women reporters there most of the time, so we saw each other a great deal. And with Col. Thompson — I beg your pardon; not Col. Thompson — Col. Robins and Maj. Thacher. I came from Stockholm on the same boat with Gen. Judson. I met him in Christiania, not in Russia.

Mr. Humes. He was military attaché in Russia?
Miss Bryant. He was the head of our military mission there.

Mr. Humes. I do not think you quite understand me. What other people from America were connected with the operations of the Bolshevik government while you were there?
Miss Bryant. You mean Americans?

Mr. Humes. Yes; Americans, or people who had come from America to Petrograd.
Miss Bryant. There were a number of exiles that came from over here and went back.

Mr. Humes. Name them.
Miss Bryant. There was William Shatoff.

Mr. Humes. What is his position in the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. I do not know what he is now.

Mr. Humes. Is he a commissar of some kind?
Miss Bryant. No; he is not a commissar. He was organizing what they called the factory shop committees.

Mr. Humes. But he had an official connection with the government?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he is a Russian.

Mr. Humes. How long had he been in this country?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. He is not an American; he is a Russian.

Mr. Humes. He is a Russian, is he?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Was he in any way connected with the railroad administration?
Miss Bryant. I heard a witness testify to that effect, but he must have been mistaken, because he was not a railway expert. He was working in the factory shop committees there when I was there, and I think that he would not be changed, because that is what he is particularly fitted for.

Senator Wolcott. You do not know whether he was changed or not.
Miss Bryant. No; but I do not imagine so.

Senator Sterling. The witness Smith testified to that effect.
Miss Bryant. I do not think it makes any difference at all, only I am telling you what he did when I was there.

Senator Wolcott. While you were there he was not the head of any railroad?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. What other person that had come from America did you find over there in some official capacity?
Miss Bryant. I told you Reinstein and Shatoff, and I guess that is all that I know.

Mr. Humes. Of course, Trotzky was there, and he had been in the United States.
Miss Bryant. But I did not know him here.

Mr. Humes. I do not mean whom you knew here! I mean people you discovered when you got there that had been in the United States, had come from the United States.
Miss Bryant. Trotzky, of course.

Mr. Humes. Who else?
Miss Bryant. I do not know.

Mr. Humes. I am talking about Americans you came across over there.
Miss Bryant. I saw, for instance, Alexander Gumberg, a Russian, who worked for Col. Robins, and later worked for Mr. Sisson. He has returned to this country.

Mr. Humes. He had an official connection with the Bolshevik government, did he?
Miss Bryant. He came back here to establish a press agency for them, the Petrograd News Agency, I believe, and he got certain concessions from them to do that.

Mr. Humes. Did he ever establish it?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. I know he received $5,000 from Mr. Sisson for his work.

Mr. Humes. For his work in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; for securing certain documents, and other work.

Mr. Humes. Was he in the employ of the government?

Miss Bryant. Yes; he was in the employ of the government. He also pretended to be a close friend of Trotzky, and he was in the employ of Sisson, and I do not know who else or what other mysterious business he performed.

Mr. Humes. Did he ever organize that information bureau in this country?
Miss Bryant. I do not know.

Mr. Humes. Or press bureau, or whatever you call it?
Miss Bryant. It was called the Petrograd Press Agency. That agency is a real plum.

Mr. Humes. Is he still in America?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. What other Americans did you come across over there in government circles?
Miss Bryant. That is all I can think of.

Senator Sterling. Did you know Mr. Shatoff before you knew him in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I once heard him speak at a meeting of Russian heros.

Senator Sterling. Where, here? In what city?
Miss Bryant. I believe it was in Paterson.

Senator Sterling. In Paterson, N.J.?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. When was that speech made?
Miss Bryant. About three years ago.

Senator Wolcott. Did you know a man over there by the name of Zoren?
Miss Bryant. I did not know him. I heard that he was there, I believe in Kronstadt. Let me see —

Senator Wolcott. He was a commissar, was he not?
Miss Bryant. Yes. I mentioned him in my book, I believe, but I do not remember in what connection now.

Senator Wolcott. He was from America?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he had been in America.

Mr. Humes. You say that Col. Robins had an information bureau over there?
Miss Bryant. You see, it was this way: Col. Robins was very anxious to know everything that was going on in Russia, and he realized that the socialists, of course, would be closer to the soviet government, and would have their confidence. Therefore, he was very anxious to know through them what was going on, and also he wanted to know what they were doing about organizing a revolution in Germany, and whether they were pro-German or not, and when there were meetings we went to them and reported to him. I went to one of the meetings of the German war prisoners with Mr. Dosch-Fleurot, and I made a report to Col. Robins and also to the American consul, Mr. Treadwell. We went to as many meetings of all kinds as we possibly could.

Mr. Humes. Will you tell us how many of those were employed by Col. Robins in this information bureau?
Miss Bryant. I do not think you would call it an information bureau; and I know that Miss Beatty worked for the Red Cross.

Mr. Humes. This was an information bureau of the Red Cross, was it?
Miss Bryant. Why, yes, in a way; and we all worked very closely with the Red Cross and Col. Robins with the American Embassy.

Mr. Humes. You have mentioned two people that were employed besides the assistance that you gave him. Now, whom else did he have working for him?
Miss Bryant. At one time he had Mr. Reinstein. I was never employed. I did my work gratis.

Senator Overman. Is he the man who is now in the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. When was that with reference to the time when Reinstein became an official of the Bolshevik government?

Miss Bryant. That was at a previous time. They used to give Col. Robins accounts of all meetings, public and otherwise, that they could get into, meetings in the prisons and elsewhere, so that he would have news besides what he covered himself.

Mr. Humes. Were there any other informants besides the ones you have mentioned? Was Williams one of his informants?
Miss Bryant. Why, yes.

Mr. Humes. Was your husband?
Miss Bryant. Yes. I would like to give testimony at this point, if you will let me, about certain things they did.

Mr. Humes. Now, Miss Bryant, when you left Russia, how did you get out of Finland? At what point did you leave Finland?
Miss Bryant. I went by way of Haparanda, and the sailors — you see, there was a good deal of confusion and there was fighting going on. and the Kronstadt sailors who were on my train were taken off and taken out and shot, and —

Senator Nelson. Shot by whom?
Miss Bryant. By the White Guard and the Germans. You see, the Germans were fighting against the Red Guards in Finland, because the White Guards wanted to put a German king on the throne of Finland, and the Bolsheviki were sending up people to reenforce the Red Guards in Finland.

Mr. Humes. Then you were on that train —
Miss Bryant. I was on the last train that got through.

Mr. Humes (continuing. . . ) On which there were some of the representatives of the Bolshevik government who were —
Miss Bryant. No; they were not representatives of the Bolshevik government. They were simply sailors, in another car.

Mr. Humes. They were Kronstadt sailors?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Were they not sympathizers with the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes, they were sympathizers; they were Bolshevik sailors.

Mr. Humes. They were sympathizers; and the White Guards came on that train and took them off and shot them?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. That was because of their connection with the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes, and because the sailors were anti-German.

Mr. Humes. How does it happen that you, an official messenger of the Bolshevik government —
Miss Bryant. They did not know that I had courier’s papers.

Mr. Humes (continuing. . . ) Did not fall into the hands of the White Guards, if they were after all the Bolsheviks?
Miss Bryant. Because they simply thought that I was an American, and did not pay any attention to me.

Mr. Humes. They did not even ask you for your credentials?
Miss Bryant. They may have looked at my American passport. I would not have given them the other, certainly.

Mr. Humes. But you had in your possession bags with papers, with the official seals on them of the soviet government, did you not?
Miss Bryant. You are making a picture that is not quite true. They were only looking, as they came through the train, for certain armed persons, for soldiers sent up there to fight them. They went through the train and took the soldiers away and went right on and paid no attention to us.

Mr. Humes. They did pay some attention to you, because you say they looked at your American passport.
Miss Bryant. I mean, it was like this: People were always going through the train and looking at your passports. You are shut in these compartments, you know; the train is all made up of compartments, and they would come and open the door and say, “Give me your passport,” and you would hand it to them. The thing was that when we got to the border the Bolsheviki, who were in charge of the border — you see, the way it was, some points would be held by the White Guard and some by the Red. The Bolsheviki still held the border, and when I got up there I gave him my credentials and they let me bring my bags through.

Mr. Humes. The White Guards you came in contact with simply demanded credentials of the Americans and others on the train besides the sailors that were coming on there for military purposes?
Miss Bryant. They did not stay on the train two minutes. They simply said, “Show us your passports,” and marched away, and we went on.

Mr. Humes. The White Guards you speak of respected your American passport and American citizenship?
Miss Bryant. They did not have time to respect it or not respect it. They simply wanted to get all the armed people out of the way.

Mr. Humes. The fact remains that they did respect it?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not know that they did. I could not tell whether every different group of people that passed through my train were White Guards or Red Guards.

Senator Nelson. They did not shoot you like they did the sailors?
Miss Bryant. They would have if I had been armed.

Senator Nelson. Why?
Miss Bryant. Well, they would have, in any case, if I had remained, because if I had been in Finland and the White Guards were trying to put a German king on the throne, I would have been fighting with the Red Guards.

Senator Nelson. Did you not say that they took those sailors out and shot them?
Miss Bryant. I did not see them shot. I did not run after them when they took them out.

Mr. Humes. How do you know they shot them?
Miss Bryant. I found that out in Stockholm afterwards.

Mr. Humes. Now, you say you do not know whether the people who came in and took these sailors off the train were White Guards or Red Guards?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; I do know about those particular people.

Mr. Humes. You said a moment ago that you did not know which they were.
Miss Bryant. You are trying to confuse me now, major.

Mr. Humes. No; I am not trying to confuse you. You said a moment ago that you did not know whether they were White Guards or Red Guards.
Miss Bryant. Will you let me straighten this out?

Mr. Humes. Yes.
Miss Bryant. In time of revolution American correspondents usually carried passes from both sides, and often both sides gave us passes, and especially in Great Russia. Correspondents were not armed and not detained.

Senator Nelson. Did you have passes from both sides?
Miss Bryant. No; I did not in this particular case; but in Russia I often had pusses from the reactionaries and passes from the Red Guards, and they gave them to other correspondents. They all gave us passes, so that we could go and report the truth.

Senator Overman. I notice your passports here say that you are a representative of the American social democracy and an internationalist. You did not go there, then, as a correspondent, but as a representative of the internationalist?
Miss Bryant. No. You see, Senator Overman, when you go and ask the soviet officials for a pass they make it out in their own way. They make it out so that their own soldiers will understand it.

Senator Overman. They did not make this out to show that you were a correspondent, but they made it out to show that you were an internationalist.
Miss Bryant. Oh, as for that, being an internationalist is not unique. Anyone is an internationalist that even believes in the league of nations and things of that kind.

Senator Overman. All except one of your passports is signed by Peters, who is said to be the “high executioner.”
Miss Bryant. Yes. I would like to tell you about Peters.

Mr. Humes. Do you know anything about the activities of Peters as executioner recently?
Miss Bryant. I do not know; but I know how he felt about capital punishment. He knew all the correspondents very well. One reason for that was because he had lived in England, and he spoke English very well.

Mr. Humes. What is his nationality?
Miss Bryant. He is a Lett.

Mr. Humes. How long had he been in England?
Miss Bryant. He had escaped from Russia during the 1905 revolution and had been over there ever since.

Mr. Humes. Has he ever been in the United States?
Miss Bryant. No. When we found out that this man spoke English so well we, of course, always went around and asked favors of him, asked if he would tell us about certain things, and if he would give us certain credentials. He was very friendly to the correspondents at that time.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that it was not at all difficult to find people who spoke English in the soviet government?
Miss Bryant. No; it was not difficult at all.

Mr. Humes. People who spoke English as well as Peters?
Miss Bryant. Yes; there were a good many of them that spoke English, but he had a good deal of authority and could render assistance.

Mr. Humes. That is what I want to find out. Who were these people that spoke English and had learned it in the United States?
Miss Bryant. They did not necessarily learn it in the United States. Russians who are educated often speak five or six languages. They do not have to go to the country to learn the language.

Mr. Humes. Then I understand you to say that, so far as you have knowledge, you only discovered the three or four or five persons that you have mentioned in Russia who had formerly lived in the United States; is that true?
Miss Bryant. I think that is true; but I would like to refresh my memory.

Mr. Humes. The only people you came in contact with?
Miss Bryant. I mentioned four or five people in my book. If there are any more there than I mentioned — let me see the book for a moment.

Mr. Humes. Can you tell us who the others are who came from the United States by reference to your book?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I will tell you. Kollontay, the minister of welfare.

Mr. Humes. What position did he hold?
Miss Bryant. She.

Mr. Humes. She?
Miss Bryant. She was minister of welfare.

Mr. Humes. What was her nationality?
Miss Bryant. Russian.

Mr. Humes. How long had she been in the United States?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. I did not know her in the United States.

Mr. Humes. Did you not hear from her how long she had been in the United States?
Miss Bryant. No. In the democratic congress we were seated in the reporters’ boxes. They always reserved a place for the reporters. She came up one evening and asked, “Are you American correspondents?” We replied, “Yes”; and she said she had been in America; and from that time on we all came to know her very well.

Mr. Humes. Where had she lived in the United States?
Miss Bryant. I do not think she had lived here. I think she went on a tour of the United States. Another person I knew over there was Catherine Breshkovskaya, who testified here. I saw her, more or less, during the time she lived in the Winter Palace.

Mr. Humes. She had only been in this country touring?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; but she had also lived some time in this country.

Mr. Humes. Well, now, whom else did you find who had been in this country?
Miss Bryant. Let me see.

Mr. Humes. Did you meet a negro by the name of Gordon?
Miss Bryant. I did not meet any negroes. I did not see but one negro while I was there, and he had nothing to do with the soviet. He was a professional gambler.

Mr. Humes. Did you meet a man by the name of Murieff?
Miss Bryant. I did not.

Mr. Humes. You did not meet him?
Miss Bryant. I do not remember —

Mr. Humes. If you can think of any other Americans or persons who had been in America, by reference to your book, any other person who had been in this country, I wish you would tell us who they are.
Miss Bryant. Let me see; you mean Americans who were connected with the soviet government?

Mr. Humes. Americans who were connected with the soviet government, and Russians who for a period of time had been residents of this country.
Miss Bryant. There was one man over there, who worked on an English paper, by the name of George Sokolsky, who may or who may not have been a Russian. He claimed to be a Russian here and he claimed to be an American in Russia.

Mr. Humes. Was he connected with the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. He had no connection with the Bolshevik government, but he had other connections. The Bolsheviki distrusted him.

Senator Sterling. Had he lived in America?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Where?
Miss Bryant. In New York.

Mr. Humes. Had you known him in this country?
Miss Bryant. No. I met him there; he came up to me on the street in Petrograd and spoke to me and to Mr. Reed.

Mr. Humes. Do you know with whom he was connected in this country?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not know with whom he was connected, particularly in America or in Stockholm. He worked on this English paper and he wrote certain things that always seemed to me to be written just to anger the Russians — that is, to alienate them from America. He seemed to take particular delight in saying “An American says this and that about Russia,” at a critical moment. None of the reporters trusted him.

Mr. Humes. Was he connected with Morris Hillquitt in New York?
Miss Bryant. No; not at all. He is not a Socialist.

Senator Overman. Who is Alexandra Kollontay?
Miss Bryant. She is the minister of welfare. She is an exceptionally cultured woman, who wrote 10 books on welfare before she became connected with the government.

Senator Wolcott. May ask who Mr. Dosch-Fleurot is?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he is the World correspondent.

Senator Wolcott. Was he or not sympathetic with the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. He changed every now and then. Now he is very much against them. At times I think he was not so much against them. At the present time I think he is quite against them.

Senator Wolcott. How was he over in Russia?
Miss Bryant. In Russia he went through various changes. He did not seem to remain of the same opinion, at all.

Senator Sterling. What was he to begin with?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. He has been a correspondent of the World abroad for a good many years.

Senator Sterling. But what were his sympathies to begin with? Did he sympathize with the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Oh, no; not at the beginning. I think he was quite against it.

Senator Sterling. Afterwards, did he become identified with the Bolsheviks?
Miss Bryant. No. I brought back to the World an article, which was printed by the World, telling how Mr. Dosch-Fleurot felt about Russia at that time. The article was featured and caused a good deal of comment in other papers.

Mr. Humes. Now, Miss Bryant, you say your husband and Boris Reinstein and Williams were engaged in propaganda work. Were they engaged in a propaganda work as distinguished from this correspondent that you have referred to, which was intended to create a friendly feeling between Russia and the United States?
Miss Bryant. Why, their principal task was to break down the German forces on the front.

Mr. Humes. Were they undertaking to do that by an attack on the United States Government and upon the officials of the United States Government?
Miss Bryant. Why, no; of course they were not.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that this newspaper was published as one of the papers that was published by them [indicating]? Is not that one of the papers that they published over there in German?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but everything in it they did not write.

Mr. Humes. I do not know whether you can read Russian or not, but on the front page of that paper that is published —
Miss Bryant. This is not Russian, it is German text [indicating another paper].

Mr. Humes. In that paper that they published is there not a violent attack upon the President of the United States and upon the attitude of the United States?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but they did not write it.

Mr. Humes. How did it happen to be in the paper that they were publishing under the supervision of Col. Robins if they had no control over it?
Miss Bryant. Well, if you will ask Col. Robins, he will tell you a very interesting story about it, and he could tell you why, much better than I could, because he knows much better.

Mr. Humes. You made the statement that this one newspaper correspondent was putting, as you understood, squibs in the paper from time to time that you felt were calculated to estrange the Americans and Russians?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; but he had no connection with this paper or with the soviets.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the activity — that your activity and the activity of Boris Reinstein —
Miss Bryant. My activity? I did not confess to any activity.

Mr. Humes. Well, we will omit you, then. Is it not a fact that the activity in which Boris Reinstein and your husband and Williams were engaged was calculated to create prejudice and a feeling of animosity against the United States and against the officials of the United States?
Miss Bryant. Absolutely not.

Mr. Humes. How do you account for this article; and who did write that article?
Miss Bryant. As I understand it, someone not an American, wrote that; someone who was very unfriendly toward the United States; but they (the Americans) did not even know that it was going into the paper until after they actually saw it in print.

Mr. Humes. Then they were running an information bureau —
Miss Bryant. No; you do not let me answer you, Mr. Humes, and that is why I can not tell you anything clearly. This paper that you have particular reference to, they did not have supervision of that.

Mr. Humes. Did they not have anything to do with this paper?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but they did not edit that [indicating paper in the hands of Mr. Humes]. They edited this [indicating another paper], an illustrated sheet.

Mr. Humes. Let me call your attention to your husband’s own article.
Miss Bryant. That is not my husband’s article. Why do you not ask my husband about it?

Mr. Humes. I want to call your attention to your husband’s own article. After about a dozen numbers of Die Fackel it was changed to Der Volkefriede. I do not know what the pronunciation is of that, but it was changed to this paper [indicating].
Miss Bryant. Yes; it was first Die Fackel — the Torch — and then it was changed.

Mr. Humes. Now, in this article he says that the publication of this paper is under himself, Williams, and Boris Reinstein.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Now, if he had nothing to do with this, and was not the editor of the paper, who did control the things that went into the paper?
Miss Bryant. If you would ask him, he would tell you.

Mr. Humes. Do you know?
Miss Bryant. No; I simply know about this point.

Mr. Humes. You do not know anything about the detailed activities, then, of your husband and Williams and these other English papers at that time?

Miss Bryant. No. There were no English papers. There were Russian and German papers. I did not work in the foreign office. The English paper was not published by the soviets.

Mr. Humes. They worked in the foreign office, did they?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Working in the foreign office, they assumed, as provided by the constitution, the duties and the responsibilities and rights of Russian citizenship?
Miss Bryant. I do not know.

Senator Sterling. Who was the minister for foreign affairs under whom they worked?
Miss Bryant. Trotzky.

Senator Overman. I notice that you have a picture in your book which is before me here, “The Red Burial held in Moscow in November. Five hundred bodies were buried in one day.”
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. Were those Red Guards who were buried?
Miss Bryant. Yes; Red Guards that were buried, shot by the White Guards.

Mr. Humes. Did you at any time, except on the one occasion you related about the armored car, see any open assassination on the streets of Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. No; I was in the Winter Palace the day that it fell. I was in the Winter Palace with the Kerensky officials and the junkers. I stayed there all day. They expected that they would have to surrender, and I wanted to be there when the palace fell. I wanted to see what it would be like, and to get the story. About 5 o’clock I decided that there was not going to be any attack, and I asked permission to leave. They told me that I could go, and I went out, and I found that there was a huge meeting going on in Smolny Institute, and I went to that meeting. While we were at the meeting, we heard firing, the firing of cannon on the Winter Palace, and we rushed out and saw a big motor car just going down, and we asked permission to ride in it, and they let us ride. We went down the Nevsky Prospect, and when we got near the Winter Palace, we found that it had just fallen, and we ran in with the first troops. I was with Miss Beatty, and Mr. Reed was there, and Mr. Williams.

Mr. Humes. Of course, you saw some people killed at that time?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. No one was killed?
Miss Bryant. I did not say no one was killed. I did not see anyone killed.

Mr. Humes. The Bolshevik revolution and the overthrow of the Kerensky government was entirely bloodless?
Miss Bryant. No; I say I did not see anybody killed. There were a number of Bolsheviki killed outside of the Winter Palace, but it was night, so I did not see them, but there were no junkers killed. I did not say that the revolution was bloodless. In fact, I just stated a moment ago that I was on the street when many people were killed.

Mr. Humes. All connected with that one occurrence of the motor car. I said, with that one exception, did you ever see anyone killed there in street fighting, or shot down and killed on the streets of Petrograd, while you were there?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I saw one man killed. I was walking on the street, and some sniper shot from a roof top, and he dropped down.

Mr. Humes. That was after or before the Bolsheviki came in?
Miss Bryant. That was after the Bolsheviki came in.

Mr. Humes. Then what happened?
Miss Bryant. Then sailors ran out of the government hotel and from everywhere, and cried out “provocateur,” because they thought that it was some one trying to start a riot, and they were rushing around the streets, trying to find who it was. That is the only time.

Mr. Humes. That is the only time? Besides the persons you saw killed from that armored car, you only saw one other person killed on the streets of Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. Yes; except wine pogroms.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that it is an everyday occurrence, and was while you were there, on the streets of Petrograd, to have people shot down in cold blood?
Miss Bryant. I do not know that it is so, and I am sure there are 10 witnesses who will testify to the opposite, and they were the heads of the official organizations sent over from the United States. They did not see it, either.

Mr. Humes. Then the testimony of all the reputable people who have testified here as to the things that they actually saw with their own eyes is false?
Miss Bryant. Did they testify that they actually saw those things?

Mr. Humes. Yes.
Miss Bryant. I have been in the room most of the time, and I did not hear people say that they actually saw such things.

Mr. Humes. There has not been a witness here that has not testified that they with their own eyes saw these things.
Miss Bryant. They may have. I did not. You do not want me to testify to things that I did not see, do you?

Mr. Humes. As a reporter, yes, you did not see them?
Miss Bryant. As a reporter, I did not see such things. And please remember, it would have made a much more lurid story if I had, but I did not see it.

Mr. Humes. Who was paying you while you were over there?
Miss Bryant. Well, I went on a contract of fifty-fifty; that is, 50 per cent of the amount of money for the articles I wrote was paid to me by the Philadelphia Ledger when I returned. My husband paid my expenses. It is not a matter of money at all. I did not take any money for what I did over there.

Mr. Humes. Did you receive any money from anybody in Russia, I mean by way of pay for services?
Miss Bryant. No; I did not work for pay while I was over there; not even for Col. Robins.

Mr. Humes. You did not work for pay. You were there for love?
Miss Bryant. No; I was not there for love. I was there because I wanted to see the revolution, and because I am a reporter, and because the revolution caught my imagination.

Mr. Humes. And during all your time over there you saw no evidence of disorders or of starvation on the streets — people falling dead?
Miss Bryant. No; I did not see anybody fall dead.

Mr. Humes. No horses falling dead on the streets of Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. And you left there in the middle of January?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Did you see anybody begging for bread or food or anything of that kind?
Miss Bryant. There are always many beggars in Russia, but I understand there are less there now than before.

Senator Sterling. But you saw no beggars on the streets?
Miss Bryant. Very few beggars. No more than I see here in the United States.

Senator Nelson. Is not that because they have joined the Red Army, that there are no beggars?
Miss Bryant. If they are old or weak, of course they can not join the Red Army. It is composed mostly of young men.

Senator Wolcott. There are much fewer people in Petrograd than there were?
Miss Bryant. There may be less people there now. I have read reports claiming great decrease in population since I was there, but at the time I left the population had not diminished. In fact, it was very hard to get accommodations at that time, because so many delegates came in for the various congresses and all sorts of political meetings that were going on.

Senator Nelson, You came there before the Kerensky government had lost its power?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. The Kerensky government was trying to carry on the war against Germany, was it not?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and so did the soviet government.

Senator Nelson. Did the Bolshevik government that succeeded them; did they try to fight the Germans?
Miss Bryant. They not only tried, but they have succeeded, Senator Nelson, so that they have pushed the Germans clear back almost to their original borders.

Senator Nelson. They succeeded in culminating in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
Miss Bryant. But, Senator Nelson, do you know that at the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk the soviet sent a series of questions to the United States asking for assistance, saying if this assistance was given them, if we would back them up, they would break the negotiations and not sign the treaty of Brest-Litovsk?

Senator Nelson. No.
Miss Bryant. And Col. Robins has that original document in his possession?

Senator Nelson. I never heard of that.
Miss Bryant. That is true, and I have seen it and at least 20 other persons have seen it.

Senator Overman. Did you notice any German officers there?
Miss Bryant. I certainly did not. I saw some German prisoners; and the Bolsheviki, of course, were organizing them to fight against their own government.

Senator Sterling. And they were succeeding in organizing German prisoners to fight against Germany?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and one way they used them before the armistice was as smugglers of propaganda, sending all sorts of things back into Germany to overthrow the German Government.

Mr. Humes. When these troops were organized, where did they do any fighting against Germany?
Miss Bryant. They have been fighting steadily against Germany.

Mr. Humes. That was the Czecho-Slovaks. It was the Czecho-Slovak unit that was organized, was it not?
Miss Bryant. Not altogether.

Mr. Humes. What unit was organized by the soviet government that did any fighting against Germany?
Miss Bryant. They fought with the soviet army and have been fighting Germany and have been pushing the Germans back to the Russian borders, as you must know. If you will follow the line, you will see they have gone down as far as Kiev and Riga.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the only fighting force besides the Red Guards, that was organized to perpetuate the Bolshevik power, was the Czecho-Slovak unit?
Miss Bryant. I would not say that that was the only organization.

Senator Overman. You may let the crowd come back now, if they will keep quiet.
Miss Bryant. My feeling for the Czecho-Slavs was that that body of men should have been allowed to go back to their own country, and that is exactly what they tried to do.

Mr. Humes. That is what they were trying to do?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

(At this point the doors of the committee room were reopened, and the subcommittee resumed its public session.)

Senator Overman. Now, I want to say to those in the audience, I have let you in, and I hope you will observe the warning not to make any noise or allow any more cheering in here. If you do not observe it, I will have to clear the room again. I hope I will not have to do it.

Mr. Humes. Now, Miss Bryant, you say when you came out of Russia as a courier you brought many papers with you?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. What official papers of the Bolshevik government did you bring out?
Miss Bryant. I did not bring any, as I have already stated. You have seen all my papers, Mr. Humes, because, of course, they were all gone over when I came into the United States. Everybody’s papers are. And you have returned all these papers, both to myself and to Mr. Reed and to Mr. Williams. Everyone’s papers have been returned.

Mr. Humes. Have the papers of Mr. Reed been returned?
Miss Bryant. Yes; months ago. I think three or four were lost, but almost all were returned.

Mr. Humes. The trunk of literature that was taken from him has all been returned?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir; Mr. Williams’s papers were also returned.

Mr. Humes. Then the material that you brought out was purely your own notes and property. They belonged to you?
Miss Bryant. I did not bring much; just what I needed for my stories in books and papers.

Senator Overman. I want to ask you whether or not at that time the people were starving?
Miss Bryant. Well, you see, Senator Overman, the cutting off of the supplies by the Germans in the south and by the allies in the north, of course, made starvation —

Senator Overman. Answer the question, whether or not there was starving.
Miss Bryant. They were very hard up. I was trying to answer. I did not see anybody fall on the street.

Senator Overman. You did not see it, but you know that they were starving.
Miss Bryant. I think they must have been, in some communities, especially where they were carrying on retreats; and the suffering of the children was very great. The American Red Cross did all it could to bring milk over for the babies of Russia, but it was not very successful.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that all the food that was in Petrograd was in the custody of the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir; the soviet had taken it over.

Mr. Humes. The soviet government issued the foodstuffs that they had to those that were affiliated with their own government and their own organization and let the other people starve?
Miss Bryant. That is not true. There never was a time while I was in Petrograd that you could not go into a store and buy certain supplies. You could do that.

Mr. Humes. Was there plenty of money there when you were there?
Miss Bryant. People seemed to have money.

Mr. Humes. Specie?
Miss Bryant. Just paper money.

Mr. Humes. Well, it was the money of the Bolshevik régime and the Kerensky régime, or of the old régime?
Miss Bryant. They seemed to have a combination of all kinds, but it did not seem to make any difference to them.

Mr. Humes. All passed at the same value?
Miss Bryant. There were various kinds in Petrograd which all passed the same way, but I noticed when we got to the border of Sweden, for instance, we had some Kerensky notes, and they said they were not worth very much, and they would only give us a hundredth part of what they were worth.

Mr. Humes. What did they give you for Bolshevik notes?
Miss Bryant. We did not have any, or very little money when we got there.

Mr. Humes. You did not have any money of the old régime?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. Now, when you were in Petrograd, were the newspapers permitted to publish anything that they wanted to print?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Will you let me bring evidence to show?

Mr. Humes. If you have the newspapers.
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes. I have files which I shall be very glad to show you. I wanted to state at the beginning — but you would not allow me to make a statement — that I would not say anything that I could not prove myself or could not give you the source of information in the United States. These [indicating] are what they call “Satirikons,” satirical magazines, cruelly denouncing the Bolshevik revolution.

Mr. Humes. What are the dates of those?
Miss Bryant. April and December, two December, 1918, numbers. That is long after the Bolsheviki came into power.

Senator Wolcott. December, 1918?
Miss Bryant. Yes; 1918, after the Bolshevik uprising. These [indicating] are cartoons of Trotzky and various people.

Mr. Humes. This paper has been since suppressed, has it not?
Miss Bryant. Not that I know of.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that there is not a newspaper published in Russia except the Bolshevik journals?
Miss Bryant. I do not believe that is so.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know that the constitution of the Bolshevik government itself provides for the suppression of all newspapers?
Miss Bryant. I am certain it does not.

Mr. Humes. I will call your attention to the constitution itself.
Senator Overman. What was the purpose of that meeting that you had at Poli’s?
Miss Bryant. The subject?

Senator Overman. The purpose.
Miss Bryant. The purpose was to protest against intervention in Russia. I, as an American, believing in self-determination, can not believe in intervention. I do not see how we can fight for democracy in France and against it in Siberia, or for self-determination, either, and I believe we ought to take our troops out of Russia, because I think it would be better for both nations to have friendly relations.

Senator Nelson. You are anxious to have the Bolshevik government established in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I am anxious?

Senator Nelson. Answer my question. Are you anxious to have the Bolshevik government there as a permanent thing?
Miss Bryant. I think the Russians ought to settle that.

Senator Nelson. I am asking you if you think the Bolsheviki ought to be established there?
Miss Bryant. I answered you. I said I believed in self-determination.

Senator Nelson. Are you anxious to have the Bolshevik government, as they are operating it now, established in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Why, if the Russians wish it, yes. If the Russians do not wish it, no.

Mr. Humes. I call your attention to this paragraph from the constitution of the soviet government [reading]:

Guided by the interest of the working class as a whole, the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic deprives individuals and separate groups of any rights which they may be using to the detriment of the socialist revolution.

Now, does that not deprive the people of Russia of freedom of the press and freedom of speech?
Miss Bryant. No; it deprives them of — for instance, if they wanted to bring about a counter-revolution, that is, if they are traitors.

Mr. Humes. That is, if they are against the Bolshevik government?
Miss Bryant. No; if they bring about a counter-revolution.

Mr. Humes. There is only one purpose of a counter-revolution, and that would be against the soviet or Bolsheviki, would it not?
Miss Bryant. No; the Bolsheviki is only a political party. The largest party is the left socialist revolutionary party.

Mr. Humes. The Bolshevik party is not the largest party?
Miss Bryant. That is true. It is not the largest party. The left socialist revolutionary party is the largest and it works in the soviet.

Mr. Humes. You say that anyone who is opposing the present government in Russia is a traitor?
Miss Bryant. By force of arms, of course, or asking for outside help. The same thing is true in our country, Mr. Humes.

Mr. Humes. Do you mean to say that anybody in this country who would try to overthrow the government is a traitor?
Miss Bryant. By force or by outside aid, every government official would consider them such.

Mr. Humes. Would you consider them such?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I do not want the government to be overthrown by force. I do not think that anything like that will happen here unless there is frightful suppression.

Mr. Humes. But anyone that would overthrow the Bolshevik government would be a traitor, and the government has a right to oppose and suppress their activities, the Bolshevik government, has it not?
Miss Bryant. I am explaining that —

Mr. Humes. Under your contention.
Miss Bryant. Not under my contention. I am explaining to you not what I believe, but what the Russians believe.

Mr. Humes. I am asking you how the government is being administered, the actual facts and conditions. Now, is it not a fact that under the Bolshevik government, every person who is opposing the Bolshevik government —
Miss Bryant. Who is trying to overthrow it; yes.

Mr. Humes. Is treated as a traitor?
Miss Bryant. Who is trying to overthrow it, naturally.

Mr. Humes. Anyone who is trying to overthrow the government is treated us a traitor?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. And is shot?
Miss Bryant. I do not know that that is always so.

Mr. Humes. If his guilt is established.

Senator Overman. Did you not know that they have disarmed them?
Miss Bryant. I did not know that they have disarmed them. I would say that most everybody in Russia has arms.

Senator Overman. That is, the Bolsheviki have arms, but those who are not Bolsheviki have all been disarmed.
Miss Bryant. The social revolutionists? Perhaps the 2 per cent capitalist class is disarmed, but the workmen and peasants are armed.

Senator Wolcott. Did they not disarm the Czecho-Slav brigade, I believe it was, that set out to leave Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I believe so, but that is a long story. It has all sorts of complications. They believed that the Czecho-Slavs were trying to bring about a counter-revolution. But as I was not there I can not tell you about the Czecho-Slovaks. Louis Edgar Browne, the correspondent of the Chicago Tribune, can tell you a good deal about it. He wrote a good many articles about it when he came back. He is now in this country and he can tell you the whole trouble.

Senator Overman. Do you not know, Mrs. Reed, that they entered the homes of people and disarmed the people and looted the houses?
Miss Bryant. No, sir.

Senator Sterling. Have you any reason to believe that the disarming of the Czecho-Slovaks was at the instigation of the German agents?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not think that it was.

Senator Sterling. You have heard that and heard it repeatedly?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I have heard many things repeatedly that I do not believe.

Senator Sterling. You are not satisfied that that was the fact?
Miss Bryant. No; I am not satisfied that that was the fact. I do not think you can say that the soviets are in favor of Imperial Germany, because by all logic they could not be. They are opposed on every point. The two governments could not exist side by side.

Senator Nelson. Is not the soviet government attempting to establish itself by force?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; all governments, including our own, did that.

Senator Nelson. And force against the Russian people who do not agree with them?
Miss Bryant. Yes; we used force also against the King of England and his army.

Senator Nelson. And why should not the rest of the Russian people have the right to express themselves?
Miss Bryant. Why should not our Tories have had the right?

Senator Nelson. Why should they go to work and use force and disarm anybody?
Miss Bryant. That is the way revolutions are brought about.

Senator Nelson. Do you call that freedom?
Miss Bryant. It is a transitory stage that is always necessary in establishing new governments. We had to do it; we had to disarm our Tories, and we even shot some of our Tories.

Senator Nelson. You compare the Russian people, then, who do not agree with the Bolsheviki, with the American Tories, do you?
Miss Bryant. I compare the Russian upper classes with the Tories; yes sir.

Senator Nelson. You think that those who do not agree with the Bolshevik government and with their reign of tenor are Tories, and they ought to he killed and disarmed and driven out of the country?
Miss Bryant. I do not say that they should either be killed or disarmed or driven out of the country.

Senator Nelson. What would you do with them?
Miss Bryant. I would let the Russian people decide, just as they let us decide in our Civil War.

Senator Nelson. You would let them go on and slay one another?
Miss Bryant. I am in favor of the Russians working it out themselves; yes.

Senator Sterling. Miss Bryant, you know as a matter of fact, do you not, that the Russian Red Guards entered prisons and took men out without a trial and had them shot, again and again?
Miss Bryant. I do not know that of my personal knowledge.

Senator Sterling. You have every reason to believe that is true from what you have heard?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not, because so many stories have been started about Russia that I can not believe it ever happened.

Senator Sterling. Do you disbelieve the stories told by witnesses here, who were in those prisons, who saw the guards take them out?
Miss Bryant. I think there is no doubt that there is terror in Russia at the present time, both red and white terror.

Senator Sterling. You will admit that?
Miss Bryant. Yes; it is the natural course of a revolution.

Senator Nelson. You stand for the red terror; you pick the red terror for your mission?
Miss Bryant. For my mission? I do not understand. My point is simply this, that I believe in self-determination, and I think the Russians should decide all questions for themselves.

Senator Nelson. Self-determination at the point of a gun?
Miss Bryant. All governments have had to be self-determined at the point of a gun. There never has been a government established except after a war.

Senator Nelson. Oh, yes; lots of them.
Miss Bryant. Yes?

Senator Nelson. Have you studied this league of nations? That is supposed to be accomplished without bloodshed.
Miss Bryant. Seventeen millions of lives were lost, and they have not done anything yet, you will agree.

Senator Nelson. There is a big plan laid out.

Senator Wolcott. Mrs. Reed, I had formed the impression from what I have read in the newspapers from time to time and from what I have heard, that you have been engaged in this country in expressing words of very hearty approval of the soviet government. Now, was that impression correct on my part or not?
Miss Bryant. Why, I have always spoken against the hysteria, against the scare word we have made of Bolshevism. I have spoken in favor of an understanding, or trying to find out who these people are and what they want. There is a conception in my country that the Bolsheviki are anarchists. They are social democrats. They are against anarchism, and they have put it down with force of arms. I think those things must be made known. All people coming back from Russia are asked to speak again and again. People really are hungry to know about Russia, and they ask you to speak, and they ask questions, and you tell them what you think. That is all.

Senator Wolcott. You have not answered my question yet. Do you recall what my question was?
Miss Bryant. If I have spoken favorably of the soviet?

Senator Wolcott. Yes.
Miss Bryant. Well, I have said that it was by no means what it was represented to be; that these people are really struggling —

Senator Wolcott. You do not answer my question at all.
Miss Bryant. How do you mean, in favor of the soviet — that I ask to have a soviet government immediately in the United States, for instance?

Senator Wolcott. If we get down to definite questions, I will ask you that.
Miss Bryant. I am not advocating anything of the kind.

Senator Wolcott. Now, I will ask you if you have not before American audiences and through the American press, in your writings, praised the soviet government as a good thing for the Russians?
Miss Bryant. Why, I have said that it is my belief that it is the government desired by the majority of the Russian people, yes. I have said it fits Russia.

Senator Wolcott. You have not lent it your own personal indorsement?
Miss Bryant. I have said this, that I think it is a government that properly fits Russia.

Senator Wolcott. It has your personal indorsement for Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but I would not fight for it or against it. I would not ask for intervention to keep it in Russia. I think the Russians ought to settle their internal troubles, and I think it is a shame to have American boys killed determining what form of government there should be in Russia. That is my personal opinion.

Senator Wolcott. I will ask you this. You mentioned a while ago your opinion of it as it was applied to our situation in this country. Do you think it would be a good thing for this country?
Miss Bryant. I think each government has to work out its form of government, and I should not talk about it.

Senator Wolcott. But I have had the impression that you have backed it as a good thing for this country, and I want to know.
Miss Bryant. I do not personally see how the soviet government would be established here, and I do not say anything like that.

Senator Wolcott. Then you do not want to express an opinion?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. Would it be a good thing for America? That is a plain question.
Miss Bryant. I do not think it would fit America at the present time.

Senator Wolcott. That is the answer I was after.

Senator Nelson. Do you regard yourself as a missionary for the Bolshevik government to the people of the United States?
Miss Bryant. No, sir; I do not.

Senator Nelson. Why are you preaching their propaganda here?
Miss Bryant. I did not say that I was.

Senator Nelson. Why are you advocating it?
Miss Bryant. You say that in the same way that all the other people have been saying things against it. I am telling what I know about it.

Senator Nelson. You have no fault to find with the cut-throat policy of the Red Guards, the killing of everybody that does not agree with them?
Miss Bryant. I do not think they do kill everybody.

Senator Nelson. And disarming everybody else, and going through the buildings of people and taking out all their food and property, and looting it?
Miss Bryant. You see, Senator —

Senator Nelson. You do not think they have done that?
Miss Bryant. I think Russia is in a state of civil war.

Senator Nelson. Has not the Red Guard done that? What are the constituents of the Red Guard? What are they composed of?
Miss Bryant. Peasants and workers, young men generally, in Russia.

Senator Nelson. Are they not composed to a considerable extent of criminals?
Miss Bryant. Why, I would not say so; no.

Senator Nelson. Are there not many of the criminal class in their midst?
Miss Bryant. I did not notice it when I was there.

Senator Nelson. Do you not know that since they have got into power they have shot many of the Russian officers of the old Russian Army?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and I can understand that.

Senator Nelson. You think that is good?
Miss Bryant. I would not say that is good exactly, or exactly bad.

Senator Nelson. Your idea is that they have got to pass through a Bolshevik purgatory in order to land on terra firma in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I did not say anything of the kind. I stated that I can not say what they should do.

Senator Nelson. But you have come to tell the people of this country how good the Bolshevik government is?
Miss Bryant. Not particularly. I have come to explain.

Senator Nelson. What is your mission about the Bolshevik movement?
Miss Bryant. If you will let me explain, I would like to do it.

Senator Nelson. Wherein do you differ from those people who have been over in Petrograd and seen the slaughter and seen the killing and the commandeering? You have not seen any? Where have you kept yourself while you were in Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. I kept myself out and in danger a good deal more than the Y.M.C.A. secretaries and the bank clerks did.

Senator Nelson. But they were men who were over there all through this business.
Miss Bryant. If you ask the head of our military mission, the head of the Y.M.C.A., the head of the Quakers, or the head of the Red Cross — the heads of these various organizations — they will tell you just what I have told you.

Senator Wolcott. Did the Quakers have a representative over there?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and they have requested that he be heard.

Senator Overman. Who is that?
Miss Bryant. Mr. Frank Keddie, of Philadelphia. They have published a statement saying that they have not been heard.

Senator Overman. Has he been over there?
Miss Bryant. He was over there for several years. And also Davis, who is the head of the Y.M.C.A., was over there for two years.

Senator Overman. When did Mr. Keddie leave there?
Miss Bryant. I think he has just come back.

Senator Nelson. Were you at any other place in Russia than Moscow and Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. I was there all the time.

Senator Nelson. Only those two places?
Miss Bryant. Those were the places where most of the struggle went on.

Senator Nelson. That is the storm center?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. And you did not see any of the storm?
Miss Bryant. I told you some of the storm.

Senator Nelson. You say you saw ordinary battles but did not see massacres. You saw soldiers fighting against soldiers?
Miss Bryant. Soldiers fighting against soldiers.

Senator Nelson. Where?
Miss Bryant. Well, when Kerensky marched with the Cossacks on Petrograd I saw the Red Guards, composed of men and women, smash his forces.

Senator Nelson. Did you think that Kerensky would establish a fair government?
Miss Bryant. I believe he was a fair man, but he was not backed by the allies and that is why he failed.

Senator Nelson. You do not think he was quite as good as the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. As the soviet government, no, because he was only tolerated by the Russian people. It was only a provisional government tolerated by the soviets. They did not like the way he acted, so they threw him out.

Senator Nelson. Why do you call the Bolsheviki a provisional government?
Miss Bryant. I did not do so. It is a political party, just like the Democrats, who are in power now.

Senator Nelson. It is a political party? It is no government? It is chaos — the soviet rule in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Not at all. You do not follow me.

Senator Wolcott. You do not know what the conditions are?
Miss Bryant. I can only state as to what they were when I was there.

Mr. Humes. The present government is a dictatorship?
Miss Bryant. Yes; it is a transitory period.

Mr. Humes. It is an absolute dictatorship?
Miss Bryant. Of the proletariat; yes. It has been called that. It is the rule of the many against the few, a dictatorship of the many.

Mr. Humes. Have you studied the constitution of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Do you approve of the form of government, and have you defended the government as it is outlined?
Miss Bryant. I have not been defending it, and it is of no importance to anyone whether I approve of it or not.

Mr. Humes. I am asking if you have advocated it?
Miss Bryant. No; I have advocated self-determination in Russia.

Mr. Humes. And you have not given your approval to their form of government?
Miss Bryant. Just as I have said, I believe in self-determination.

Senator Sterling. I note one sentence in your book here, Miss Bryant, which reads as follows: The high place and the respect accorded Trotsky gives evidence of the real feeling of the people.
Miss Bryant. “Toward the Jews,” if you will go on and finish it; “the feeling of the people concerning the Jews.”

Senator Sterling. Does that relate to the Jews?
Miss Bryant. That relates to the fact that after I came home to America I found that there were stories afloat that there were pogroms among the Jews, and what I said was that the high place accorded to Trotzky — the minister of war — proved that that was not so.

Senator Sterling. Then you did not mean the whole people of Russia?
Miss Bryant. I mean to say 95 per cent.

Senator Sterling. The Jewish people?
Miss Bryant. Ninety-five per cent of the people.

Senator Sterling. You think that 95 per cent of the Russian people have this high respect for Trotzky?
Miss Bryant. I think all the people in the soviet have it.

Senator Sterling. All the people in the soviet. Are there peasants in the soviet?
Miss Bryant. Certainly. They have been in there for a year.

Senator Sterling. Do you think the peasant population of Russia — the farmers — are upholding Trotzky?
Miss Bryant. I can prove that to you.

Senator Sterling. They are terrorized more or less, are they not, by the Trotzky government?
Miss Bryant. I should say that they are not terrorized. They are armed, and they have taken their land and they are working it.

Senator Sterling. And they send out the Red Guards to get supplies from the peasants?
Miss Bryant. The peasants have their own land and have equal representation in the government.

Senator Sterling. Answer my question. Do they not send out Red Guards to take by force grain and supplies from the peasants?
Miss Bryant. No; not that I know of.

Senator Overman. You say the peasants are armed?
Miss Bryant. Yes. Of course the old Russian Anny was composed originally of peasants, and when they went home they took their arms with them.

Senator Overman. Do you not know that it has been testified here that the Bolsheviki have taken all the peasants’ arms, and they have got nothing to fight with except pitchforks and sticks?
Miss Bryant. That is not the truth.

Senator Overman. How do you know it?
Miss Bryant. The Russian armies were composed of peasants.

Mr. Humes. Were not the Russian armies disarmed when they were demobilized?
Miss Bryant. They were not. They were sent home with their arms.

Mr. Humes. Those that belonged to the Bolsheviki were given their arms.
Miss Bryant. All the rest that did not have arms were given arms.

Mr. Humes. Did it not occur while you were there that the Red Guards searched the houses and went through all the territory that they could reach, disarming the people who were not a part of the Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. I heard stories like that, but I did not see any of it.

Mr. Humes. You heard of it but did not see it?
Miss Bryant. No. You see, the left socialist party is the peasant party, and it is the biggest party in Russia, and works with the soviets. Now, Marie Spirodonova, whom I describe in my book, has been twice elected president of the all-Russian congress of peasants, meeting in Petrograd, and she has always worked with the peasants. She told me how the peasants came into the soviet, and all about it, and I think she is very good authority.

Senator Overman. People who have lived out among them — distinguished men in this country who have lived in Russia — say that they have been deliberately going to the homes of the people and robbing them and taking all their food, and also disarming them. You do not believe that?
Miss Bryant. I do not believe that is true, because Prof. Ross does not think so, and he was there, and was out among the peasants, and he said it was not true.

Senator Overman. You heard these people?
Miss Bryant. But I do not think they knew the peasants in Russia.

Mr. Humes. When did Dr. Ross leave Russia?
Miss Bryant. In March. Mr. Keddie has just come back, and he will testify to the same thing. He knows the peasants.

Mr. Humes. When did Mr. Keddie leave?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. It was just a short time ago.

Mr. Humes. Now, you say that the Bolsheviki are only a political party?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. How many political parties are there in Russia?
Miss Bryant. There are a lot of political parties, and they are all socialists, except the cadets. You see that that is the mistake that they make there, the mistake that Breshkovsky, the old grandmother of the revolution, that came in here, makes. She differs from the Bolsheviki, but they are all socialists, as this old woman is. That is what she was put in prison for, for being a socialist.

Senator Overman. And yet she came here and said that the people are starving.
Miss Bryant. I do not think she knows.

Senator Overman. And she says the people are praying for us to help.
Miss Bryant. Most of her own party has gone back in the soviet. I think she is an old lady with a grand past and a pitiful present.

Senator Nelson. Do you think that if you had been 20 years in Siberia —
Miss Bryant. I think my mind would have broken, too.

Senator Nelson. She graduated from Siberia.
Miss Bryant. She did, and so did many others who are now commisars in the government.

Senator Wolcott. Did Trotzky?
Miss Bryant. Certainly. His name, Trotzky, was a jail name that he had in Siberia.

Senator Wolcott. Was Lenine in Siberia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and Lenine’s brother was one of the greatest martyrs ever executed in Russia.

Senator Wolcott. How many years was Trotzky in Siberia?
Miss Bryant. I do not know how many years, but he escaped.

Senator Wolcott. And he came to America from there soon after the 1905 revolution?
Miss Bryant. Yes; he escaped from Russia.

Senator Wolcott. Yes. Having graduated from Siberia, having the record behind her that this old grandmother of the revolution has, you do not agree that that old lady has any interest in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I do not contend that at all, but I think she is being used.

Senator Overman. By whom?
Miss Bryant. By the counter-revolutionists, by the Mensheviks, and by various organizations.

Senator Overman. The very people she has been fighting for 30 years?
Miss Bryant. Down in Henry Street House, when they were expecting Breshkovsky, all the old ladies who have known her a lifetime were very much concerned about what was going to happen to her over here, because one of the first things she asked about was, “Where is my dear Emma?” meaning Emma Goldman, with whom she lived when she was here before. They told her she was in prison, and Breshkovsky said she wanted to go to her, and they told her it was a long ways and she could not do it, and she felt very badly about it. When she talks to you she does not know what you think, at all, and you do not know what she thinks. You do not understand each other. You are not the same kind of people.

Senator Overman. I know what she said. She said that in Petrograd, under the Bolshevik government, the people are all sad, depressed, and begging and starving to death.
Miss Bryant. How would you people feel if somebody from here went over to Russia and asked them to send an army over here? If Emma Goldman would come out of prison and do so, now that would be just as reasonable, I think.

Senator Overman. You have not much respect for the old lady?
Miss Bryant. I have a great deal of respect for her. That does not prove disrespect.

Senator Wolcott. You think she is afflicted with senile dementia, do you?
Miss Bryant. I think she does not understand. I would like to tell you a story about Tchitcherin, the minister of foreign affairs. At the time she was in hiding in Moscow, a Jewish editor came from New York and he went to Moscow, and the first thing he said to Tchitcherin, the foreign minister, was, “Can you tell me where Breshkovsky is? They have stories out in America that she has been killed.” Tchitcherin said, “She is right down the street only a short distance from here, but do not tell her we know, because the old lady is under a delusion. She thinks we want to murder her, and it will make her much happier if she thinks that we do not know where she lives. If she intends to leave Russia, we will shut our eyes.”

Mr. Humes. Was it not published in the official organ of the Bolshevik government that the old lady was dead, and that they had given her a decent burial?
Miss Bryant. She was reported dead several times.

Mr. Humes. Was it not published by Nuorteva, the official representative of the soviets. over his own signature? Do you not know that as a matter of fact?
Miss Bryant. No; I think you should ask Nuorteva about it.

Senator Nelson. You think the old lady is deluded yet?
Miss Bryant. You see, Breshkovskaya said there were no books printed in Russia and that there was no furniture even, and no schools. You remember she made that statement here. She made the statement that no books had been printed in Russia. I could bring you books that have been printed since the soviets came in power, and I know that there were thousands of new schools established.

Senator Nelson. You need not go into that. It is sufficient that you just said that the old lady was deluded.
Miss Bryant. I want to tell you about the conditions in Russia, to prove she is mistaken.

Senator Nelson. You have said the old lady is deluded; that is enough.
Mr. Humes. Did you ever read this article of Nuorteva, the official representative over here, in which he says the following:

Catherine Breshkovskaya has never been imprisoned by the soviets. When she died — not of privation but of old age — the soviet government, although she was its opponent on the question of tactics and principles, gave her a public funeral and hundreds of thousands of Moscow workers, members of the soviet, turned out to pay their respects to the “grandmother of the Russian revolution.”

You say that an effort has been made by the enemies of the soviet government to misrepresent her in this country. Has not Nuorteva misrepresented her?
Miss Bryant. Not at all. Our entire press has made the same statement that Mr. Nuorteva has made.

Senator Nelson. But do you not think the old lady is deluded because she would not stay dead?
Miss Bryant. I think, Senator Nelson, it was very hard on some people that she did not stay dead, because they wanted to prove that the Bolsheviks had killed her.

Mr. Humes. You testified that Nuorteva has been the official representative of the Bolsheviki since he came back to America. After reading that article of Nuorteva, do you think the information you would get from him is entirely reliable?
Miss Bryant. I do not think any information you get from Russia is entirely reliable, because it is so hard to get it. The government makes it so difficult to get information about Russia. We do not really actually know about the Czecho-Slavs or anything else, because we can not get information.

Mr. Humes. Nuorteva is apparently not reliable there.
Miss Bryant. I think that the majority of the information he has is entirely reliable. I do not attach any importance to this mistake.

Mr. Humes. When the information is satisfactory, when it serves his purpose.

Senator Sterling. Madame Breshkovskaya was a socialist, was she not, and is?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator Sterling. And a revolutionist?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator Sterling. Did you not prove that she was working, up until the time that the Bolsheviki came into power, as a socialist and a revolutionist in Russia?
Miss Bryant. I thought she was a very great character in those days.

Senator Sterling. But she opposed the methods of the Bolsheviki; and because she did, you think she is deluded?
Miss Bryant. Well, as you see, she stood for the provisional government and she is partisan. My point, as I said, is that I did not want to see America embroiled in a long war because of the opinion of an old lady, or the opinion of anyone — a Y.M.C.A. undersecretary or anyone else¾because I wanted Russia to work out her own destiny.

Senator Sterling. There were thousands upon thousands of socialists in Russia, were there not?
Miss Bryant. Russia is composed mostly of socialists.

Senator Sterling. There were thousands upon thousands of them who were not Bolsheviki?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Kerensky himself was a radical socialist, was he not?
Miss Bryant. Well, I would consider him not even a radical socialist.

Senator Sterling. He was considered so, was he not, as a member of the Duma?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but the Duma, you see, was very reactionary, and he naturally would be considered radical as a member of the Duma.

Senator Sterling. Were there not a number of the leaders in the Duma who were socialists and revolutionists?
Miss Bryant. Not many of them at that time.

Senator Overman. Why did the Bolsheviki have such an antipathy toward Ambassador Francis, so that he could not get in communication with them except through the Bolshevik representative, who was Mr. Robins?
Miss Bryant. I do not call Mr. Robins the Bolshevik representative.

Senator Overman. Well, what was he?
Miss Bryant. He was the head of the American Red Cross.

Senator Overman. I will take that back. You called him the “go between,” I think.
Miss Bryant. Yes; he went to the soviets whenever Ambassador Francis wanted him to, I believe, because it was easier for him to get in touch with them. For one thing, they liked his personality, and he seemed to be absolutely willing to find out what they wanted.

Senator Overman. Mr. Francis is a very agreeable man. Why was it that they had such an antipathy to him?
Miss Bryant. I do not know what it was, except that they did not seem to trust him the way that they did Col. Robins.

Senator Overman. Was not propaganda circulated in the country that he represented the capitalists of this country?
Miss Bryant. I do not think so, any more than Col. Robins and Col. Thompson, because Col. Thompson is a Wall Street man, as you know, and they liked him very well; and they liked Maj. Thacher, who is also a Wall Street man.

Senator Wolcott. He gave them a great deal of money, did he not — Col. Thompson?
Miss Bryant. I know that he gave the Kerensky government money, and I do not think they questioned it. I think they thought he was a fine man all the way around.

Senator Wolcott. But he gave money also to the Bolshevik government, did he not?
Miss Bryant. I do not know whether he did or not.

Senator Wolcott. You know he gave money to the Kerensky government?
Miss Bryant. I know he did that.

Senator Nelson. Is it not true, Mrs. Reed, that the Bolshevik government or the soviet government has segregated the people into two classes, capitalists and the proletariat?
Miss Bryant. Yes, sir.

Senator Nelson. Are you a capitalist or a proletarian?
Miss Bryant. Well, being a newspaper reporter and having absolutely —

Senator Nelson. Answer the question. Do you belong to the capitalistic class or the proletariat?
Miss Bryant. Well, I am very poor, so I belong to the proletariat. I have to be a proletarian.

Senator Nelson. You could not carry out your mission without being a proletarian?
Miss Bryant. I do not know that I have a mission; but if you want to give me one, all right.

Mr. Humes. Miss Bryant, in discussing Breshkovskaya a moment ago, you started to say that she was opposed to the constituent assembly, or was in favor of the constituent assembly and opposed to the soviet republic, or the soviets.
Miss Bryant. No; she was not opposed to the constituent.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the opposition of the Bolsheviki to her is due to the fact that she is in favor of the constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. No; not at all.

Mr. Humes. I asked her how she stood, in order to get a clear, correct diagnosis of her position.
Miss Bryant. My only opposition to her is because she believes in intervention and I do not.

Mr. Humes. She has always believed in a constituent assembly, has she not?
Miss Bryant. That is not my business.

Mr. Humes. Are not the Bolsheviki now opposed to a constituent assembly?
Miss Bryant. Yes; they do not want a constituent assembly, and neither do the left social revolutionists or any of the other parties. Mr. Tchernov, the chairman of the constituent assembly, has accepted posts in the soviet government; so even he does not stand for a constituent assembly any more, and I do not see why we should.

Senator Wolcott. That is not very good logic.
Miss Bryant. Why not? If the Russians themselves do not want a constituent assembly¾the foremost champion does not¾why should we bother ourselves about it?

Senator Wolcott. I understood you to say that some man who used to be in favor of a constituent assembly —
Miss Bryant. He was the president of the constituent assembly.

Senator Wolcott (continuing. . . ) Now has a post in the soviet government, and therefore he is not in favor of a constituent assembly.
Miss Bryant. Nearly all of them have done the same thing.

Senator Wolcott. That does not strike me as good logic at all. They may be just making the best of the situation as they find it, and still be in favor of the constituent assembly.

Mr. Humes. The distinction between the soviet government and the constituent assembly is the difference between the rule of a class and the rule of the people.
Miss Bryant. It is the rule of 95 per cent, which is a larger representation than the masses have in any other country in the world.

Mr. Humes. Do the Bolsheviki represent 98 per cent of Russia?
Miss Bryant. No; but all the parties represented in the soviets do.

Mr. Humes. Do you mean to say that all the other parties are represented in the soviet?
Miss Bryant. I know there are quite a number of them in the soviets.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that in the control of the soviets the parties, other than the Bolsheviki, are not permitted to participate, but by terrorism they are kept out?
Miss Bryant. Of course I do not. I have been in soviet meetings.

Mr. Humes. Since January, 1918? Have you been in any since January, 1918?
Miss Bryant. No; but I was present at soviet meetings during three months. The soviets have never been composed solely of Bolsheviki. They have always been composed of social revolutionists of all the parties, except the cadets and, for a time, the right socialist revolutionists and Mensheviki.

Mr. Humes. Are you talking of their paper organization or their actual operation?
Miss Bryant. Of the organization; and the soviet government has never been composed of just Bolsheviki.

Mr. Humes. Then, anything that people have testified to with respect to other parties not being represented in the soviet is not true?
Miss Bryant. It certainly is not; and if you will let me give my testimony on that here, I will prove that it is perfectly true that other parties have worked with the soviets right along.

Mr. Humes. We have had testimony here that they worked with them because they had to do it.
Miss Bryant. But it was my particular job. I had to follow the political situation. I worked very hard to get the political situation straight in my mind.

Mr. Humes. But since January, 1918, no official documents have come from Russia.
Miss Bryant. Some came to Nuorteva.

Senator Wolcott. But his official documents are not very reliable, apparently, because he put out one about the death of Breshkovsky.
Miss Bryant. But he has documents that have come from Russia.

Senator Wolcott. But anything that comes out from that man we can not depend on.
Miss Bryant. Then we can not depend on anybody, for that matter.

Senator Wolcott. But he put out a story about the death of Mme. Breshkovskaya, and we have heard her talk here.
Miss Bryant. If you would let me talk, I could contradict some of the testimony that has been given here. Even our most conservative papers gave out the same story.

Senator Wolcott. But this information that he gave out we know is not true, because the woman was here talking to us.
Miss Bryant. Do you not think, in all fairness, it is right to ask the heads of the official organizations to tell what they have seen over there?

Senator Wolcott. We may have some of them later on. This investigation is not over yet.
Miss Bryant. They have not been asked to come here so far.

Senator Nelson. Mrs. Reed, I will honestly tell you that I think you are more deluded than Mme. Breshkovskaya.
Miss Bryant. Why is that, Senator Nelson?

Senator Nelson. And I am sorry for you. But you are young, and you may reform. Now, I want to ask you one question in all seriousness. The Bolshevik government of Lenine and Trotzky has been in control over there at Petrograd and at Moscow, I think, since November, 1917?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Over 14 months.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Have they during all of that time attempted to have an election in Russia and elect a constituent assembly, a representative body, such as the Duma was before, or such as we have in free countries?
Miss Bryant. They do not want that sort of government.

Senator Nelson. Have they ever done that? Have they attempted to hold a representative election?
Miss Bryant. They are against a constituent assembly. Why should they hold an election for it?

Senator Nelson. They constitute themselves a constituent assembly.
Miss Bryant. They have a regular elective government within the soviets.

Senator Nelson. Then they hold such elections, do they?
Miss Bryant. Do you know how a soviet government works? They can have an election any time they want it.

Senator Nelson. Are you familiar with the land system of Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Of what does it consist?
Miss Bryant. The land system?

Senator Nelson. Yes.
Miss Bryant. There is only one system.

Senator Nelson. Do you not know that the Russian peasants are settled in villages and do not live on their farms, by themselves, as the farmers do in this country?
Miss Bryant. I do not see that that is a big factor, because each peasant has land.

Senator Nelson. They are floating around now, are they not?
Miss Bryant. No; they have their own pieces of land, on which they live and work.

Senator Nelson. Has not that been the system up until this time — that they lived in villages?
Miss Bryant. The great landlords —

Senator Nelson. No; answer my question. Has not that been the fact, that the Russian peasants have lived in villages, which they called mirs?
Miss Bryant. Yes; but the mirs went out of existence 40 years ago.

Senator Nelson. And the land has belonged to the mirs, or the communities?
Miss Bryant. No; it has belonged to the great landlords.

Senator Nelson. And they allotted it from year to year, or after a period of years, to the peasants to work? Has not that been their land system?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Well, they have that land yet, have they not?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. What is the Bolshevik government going to do with it; divest the community and then assume ownership of it, and then have the state own it?
Miss Bryant. Yes. But it is the same thing, and they need not pay rent.

Senator Nelson. Instead of the community?
Miss Bryant. Well, the community and the state are the same thing. You can understand that. The peasants themselves can work communistically, as they have done in the past.

Senator Nelson. And if the state owns the land, and if it continues to own it, what will the peasants be that are working there, other than tenants?
Miss Bryant. What difference does it make?

Senator Nelson. They will not be any more than tenants. They will not be owners, will they?
Miss Bryant. No.

Senator Nelson. You do not believe that the peasants should own the land?
Miss Bryant. I think they should decide that themselves.

Senator Nelson. If the state owns it, if the soviet government or if the government of Trotzky and Lenine or the Bolshevik government, or whatever you want to call it — Beelzebub is called by different names in the Bible, as you know, but whatever you might call this government — they have confiscated all the land and said it belongs not to the rural communities, as heretofore, but it belongs to the state, and the state will continue to own it. Is not that so?
Miss Bryant. Yes; that is the idea.

Senator Nelson. Then, somebody has got to cultivate that land, have they not?
Miss Bryant. Yes; the peasants will cultivate it, as before.

Senator Nelson. Then, the people that cultivate it will be nothing more than land tenants, will they not?
Miss Bryant. Why —

Senator Nelson. Will they be anything more than tenants? They will not be owners?
Miss Bryant. But they do not care anything about that.

Senator Nelson. They will not own it as you own the hat on your head.
Miss Bryant. I would not care if it was owned by the government and they allowed me to wear it. It would not make any difference to me.

Senator Nelson. You think the Russian peasants should be nothing but tenants of the state, which should own all of the land?
Miss Bryant. Public ownership is the socialist idea and always has been.

Senator Nelson. Then, it is your idea?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I am in sympathy with socialism. All socialists believe that.

Senator Nelson. You believe that, do you not?
Miss Bryant. Every socialist in the United States and in every country believes that.

Senator Nelson. You believe that this country should take the land — condemn it — and the Government should possess all the land, and that the tillers of the land should be nothing but tenants; is that your belief? Answer my question.
Miss Bryant. Well, you have just discovered socialism.

Senator Nelson. Do you believe that? Just answer the question yes or no.
Miss Bryant. I believe that; yes. That is socialism. You have discovered socialism just there.

Senator Nelson. Yes; I am aware that that is socialism. And that is what you are trying to preach in this country, is it not?
Miss Bryant. Not at all. I am not a scholar on socialism. I have never preached it.

Senator Nelson. What are you trying to preach here?
Miss Bryant. I am not preaching. I am trying to tell what went on in Russia while I was there.

Senator Nelson. Do you believe in the system there? They have taken possession of the banks, they have taken possession of all property in Russia, and they call it the property of the State.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. The people that use that property are nothing but tenants, and cotters, and you would reduce all the Russian people and all the Russian peasants to simply a state of tenancy and make them tenants and cotters.
Miss Bryant. But under the circumstances —

Senator Nelson. You would throw civilization back a thousand years.
Miss Bryant. They think it advances it a thousand years.

Senator Nelson. It has been the ambition — as you yourself should know, if you have read history — of all the tillers of the soil, who were originally serfs and tied to the land, almost like slaves, it has been their ambition for centuries to become owners of the land that they tilled, owners themselves, and you want to undo it and go back to the olden plan and make them simply tenants. Is that your gospel?
Miss Bryant. It is not my gospel. It is the soviets’ gospel.

Senator Nelson. You believe in that soviet gospel?
Miss Bryant. I believe in socialism.

Senator Nelson. You believe in that gospel I have stated.
Miss Bryant. If the government wanted the land; yes.

Senator Nelson. And you would make the bulk of the people simply cotters, and tenants, who cultivate the land?
Miss Bryant. I do not call them cotters and tenants. I think they would be very free under such an arrangement.

Senator Nelson. You do not want the man who tills the soil, the man who handles the hoe and shovel and does the hard work, to be anything but a mere tenant? Is that your gospel?
Miss Bryant. I want him to decide it himself.

Senator Nelson. Is that your gospel? Answer my question and do not equivocate.
Miss Bryant. I do not want to force anything on any people.

Senator Nelson. Do not equivocate. Tell me where you stand. We want to know. You come here as the luminary of the Bolsheviki. Now, give us all the light you can.
Miss Bryant. That is what they believe. They believe in government ownership; yes.

Senator Nelson. And you believe in it?
Miss Bryant. I think it all right if they want it.

Senator Wolcott. I want to make sure that I understood you a while ago, Mrs. Reed. I understood you to say that in your opinion this soviet form of government, as you got acquainted with it in Russia, would not be a good thing for our country.
Miss Bryant. That is what I said. You see, it is very difficult to tell you, for you will not let me talk in order to explain.

Senator Wolcott. I will let you talk if, before you start, you will just confine yourself by my question and make your answer responsive to it.
Miss Bryant. You see, all socialists believe in government ownership, and that is government ownership. But whether it would ever be worked out in this country as it worked out in Russia I am not able to say, and that is why I said I doubted very much if it would work out exactly as it did in Russia. Russia is more of an agricultural country. I have not been advocating it one way or the other in the United States. I have simply been telling how it worked in Russia, and I am telling the facts about it now.

Senator Overman. Do you prefer that government to this?
Miss Bryant. I do not know. I have not thought about it.

Senator Sterling. Do you believe that the peasants of Russia believe in that system?
Miss Bryant. I certainly do; the greater number of them.

Senator Sterling. You believe that they believe in that system?
Miss Bryant. I believe they do. I know they do.

Senator Sterling. That the peasant who holds his land in the community of which Senator Nelson has spoken is ready to give up his land and let the state own it, and then be a tenant of the state?
Miss Bryant. There have always been communes in Russia, and they like that way of living. They work that way with the state, and they get help from the state.

Senator Nelson. Do you know, Mrs. Reed, that there are two classes of socialists, which are generally designated as those who believe in socialism by evolution by peaceful methods and those who believe in socialism by revolution?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Does not the Trotzky-Lenine government belong in the latter class — to the revolutionary socialists?
Miss Bryant. Well, they believe that —

Senator Nelson. Answer my question. Do they not belong to the revolutionary class?
Miss Bryant. All socialists belong to it in a way, if there is no other method of bringing about their desires.

Senator Nelson. Well, I am asking you about this concrete case.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. Do they not belong to the revolutionary class?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. They do not believe in securing it by evolution?
Miss Bryant. They do if they can; but they could not do it in Russia.

Senator Nelson. But if they can not, it is by revolution?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. By blood and sword, rapine, murder, and fire. Do you believe in that?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not. I did not say that.

Senator Wolcott. Then, if I got your point of view, it is that you are a socialist in that you are in sympathy with socialistic ideas?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. You believe, however, in socialism obtained by lawful processes if, under the form of government in the particular country, it is obtainable in that way?
Miss Bryant. That is it, exactly.

Senator Wolcott. Undoubtedly in this country it is obtainable by law if the people want it by law?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. Therefore, in this country, you would be opposed to the use of violence such as its representatives have perpetrated in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. I am very anxious to get that from you, because it is commonly understood that you advocate in this country such a program as has been going on in Russia.
Miss Bryant. At our meeting in Washington all of this came up, and that was the statement gotten out by the Washington Post, because they are in sympathy, as I understand it, with the old Czar’s régime; so they wanted to discredit our meeting as much as possible; so they said we advocated the violent overthrow of the United States Government, and I did not say anything about it at all. The Secret Service has a full report and they will verify this statement.

Senator Wolcott. You want to go on record as being opposed to violence in carrying out this program in this country?
Miss Bryant. I am opposed to violence; and I am also opposed to the right of free press and free speech being taken from the American people. I am opposed to all kinds of curtailments of free press and free speech.

Senator Overman. Would you be opposed to the circulation through the mails of those papers that advocate murder and assassination to overthrow the Government?
Miss Bryant. No, I would not be; but I do not think there are such papers — certainly not socialist papers — that advocate the violent overthrow of the United States Government.

Senator Overman. I am not asking you if there are such, but if you would be willing to support a law to stop such papers from going through the mails?
Miss Bryant. Most of our laws are made in such a way that they curtail all kinds of things that they are not supposed to curtail. Take the espionage act, for example.

Senator Overman. I asked you if you would want to stop this propaganda that advocates the overthrow of the Government by force from going through the mails?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Overman. I am glad to hear you say that.
Miss Bryant. But I believe that the wisest course at the present time is tolerance, and I do not think we show any tolerance at all. We exhibit nothing but hysteria. When I came into this room, simply because it was to give a sympathetic view of the soviet rule, I was attacked in a manner that no one else has been.

Senator Wolcott. You were not attacked, Mrs. Reed, when I was here.
Miss Bryant. You were not here.

Senator Wolcott. You mean in the very beginning, when you were asked these questions about your beliefs?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. They are questions that are commonly asked in court when a witness has taken the stand, when it is desired to have information in answer to the questions that will be pertinent.
Miss Bryant. But they were asked in a rather cutting tone, and with a certain rough manner that was not used with any other witness.

Senator Wolcott. Well, those questions were not asked of any other witness.
Senator Overman. I believe Senator King asked those questions. He is a judge, and I believe those questions are not infrequently asked when it has been testified that a person has certain beliefs. Of course, it has been testified that the Bolsheviki do not believe in the Christian religion, and we wanted to know whether you had the same doctrine as the Bolsheviki. You could not complain of that.
Miss Bryant. It does not matter now. I am very glad I could tell you anything. I told you that I was at the service of this committee.

Senator Overman. We did not want to show you any disrespect, but these questions were asked you —
Miss Bryant. If I recollect, you asked no other witnesses those questions, because they are against the soviets.

Senator Overman. It has been reported to us by other witnesses that the Bolsheviki did not believe in God, and we asked those questions because if you did not you would not be a competent witness.
Miss Bryant. I see.

Senator Overman. I will ask you that question, since we have come to it. Does the Bolshevik government believe in the Christian religion?

Miss Bryant. You do not understand what the soviets did? They did as the French did in 1910, they separated the church and state, and that is the basis of all French politics to-day. You can be a member of any church or you do not need to be a member of any. It is just as it is under the American Government, do you see? You may belong to this church or that church. They allow freedom of religion.

Senator Wolcott. If that is all it is, nobody is opposed to that.
Miss Bryant. That is all it is.

Senator Wolcott. Now, in regard to this Washington Post article you spoke of, did that article state¾and I am asking you because my recollection is that it did — that anyone at that meeting you spoke of advocated the overthrow of government by force?
Miss Bryant. I tell you it did. I had the clippings and I went over them. In the first place, a man by the name of Brown called me a female Trotzky and made all sorts of accusations against me which were not true in any way. I do not know whether I am a female Trotzky or not, but I know the other accusations are not true.

Senator Wolcott. I do not recall that it stated that anyone advocated the overthrow of government by force.
Miss Bryant. Yes; and it even put in certain delicate little touches about our camping a block from the United States Treasury, but I do not know that that had any significance.

Mr. Humes. Did you ever attend the trial of a case in a soviet court?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I followed the revolutionary tribunal as long as I was in Russia.

Mr. Humes. Was the death penalty ever administered while you were there?
Miss Bryant. I think they did administer it afterwards, but not during the time that I was there.

Mr. Humes. The death penalty was abolished by Kerensky, was it not?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Then, after the Bolshevik government came into power, they restored the death penalty?
Miss Bryant. Yes; there are three conditions under which you can receive the death penalty. I have them here.

Mr. Humes. Under what three conditions was the death penalty imposed?
Miss Bryant. One for speculation in the necessities of life, that is, in food and other products that are needed by the starving population; for grafters inside of the soviet government itself; and for people who tried to take up arms against the government or to bring in foreign troops.

Mr. Humes. That was equivalent to treason?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. People trying to take up arms against the government?
Miss Bryant. Well, that is what I have tried to explain to you.

Senator Wolcott. You could not call that equivalent to treason, because there was no established government as yet.
Miss Bryant. But they considered it established.

Senator Nelson. But they did not apply that doctrine to the Germans?
Miss Bryant. Do you think they treated the Germans delicately? They forced the Germans out of Russia.

Senator Nelson. No; they kept them there — German officers; plenty of Germans in the Soviet Red Guard.
Miss Bryant. That is not so.

Senator Nelson. You do not know anything about it. You did not see the Red Guard, hardly. You left over a year ago, about.
Miss Bryant. But you were not there at all, at any time. How can you say it is true?

Senator Nelson. You do not know what the Red Guard is to-day?
Miss Bryant. But I can imagine it is not true. I can tell you how you can see what it looks like right now, if you want to. Mr. Humes knows that the military intelligence or the naval intelligence, I do not know which, has a film owned by the soviet government, in their possession, which was brought over here by a newspaper enterprise association man.

Senator Nelson. We have had testimony here that they had many Germans and German officers, from people who have come from there since you were there and have seen the guards.
Miss Bryant. All right; but I do not believe that it is so. It is not true that that film does exist and you have it?

Mr. Humes. Did you ever see the film that you are talking about?
Miss Bryant. I did not see it, but I know it exists.

Mr. Humes. Do you know what is on that film?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Is there anything in that film to picture the industry of the soviet government in the construction of buildings?
Miss Bryant. Yes; it shows the construction of the new station at Moscow, for one thing.

Mr. Humes. That is the same station, is it not, that was under process of construction when the war broke out and was abandoned by the government because of the lack of labor and materials; and is it not in the same state, practically, that it was in at the time of the outbreak of the war, and the soviet government put that in this film in order to try to point out, so to speak, soviet industry; is not that the fact?
Miss Bryant. I do not think that is quite true.

Mr. Humes. Did you see that station in Moscow?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Were they working on it when you saw it?
Miss Bryant. No.

Mr. Humes. When you saw it it was just in the state that it was in when the European war broke out, was it not?
Miss Bryant. I suppose so. I do not know what state it was in when the war broke out.

Mr. Humes. It is still in the same state it was in at that time?
Miss Bryant. I do not know, I am sure. But I know they show public play grounds for peasant children on the former great estates of the landlords; and I know they show new schools, new hospitals; and I know they show the Red Guard army on parade with all kinds of equipment that they have, and all sorts of things like that.

Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that that whole film is a fake film in order to misrepresent the situation?
Miss Bryant. I do not think so at all.

Mr. Humes. Well, if it represents that this station in Moscow has been constructed by the Bolsheviki, it is a misrepresentation, is it not?
Miss Bryant. They may show what they have done on that station, and that they have completed it.

Mr. Humes. But the station, when you saw it, was practically the same station it was when the war broke out.
Miss Bryant. I did not see it when the war broke out, so I do not know what condition it was in then.

Mr. Humes. But there was nothing whatever done with it at that time.
Miss Bryant. At that time they were having a frightful civil war and they could not do anything. It must have been long before this film was taken.

Senator Sterling. You spoke about three instances in which the death penalty was inflicted?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Let me ask you if one of the conditions of inflicting the death penalty in those three instances was first a trial and a judgment of the court?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. It was?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Are you sure about that?
Miss Bryant. It always was so. I do not know why it should not have been in these cases.

Senator Sterling. Did you hear the testimony here to the effect that members of the Red Guard came into the prisons and took men out and shot them without any trial at all or chance to be heard?
Miss Bryant. I heard witnesses testify that the Red Guard had come and taken people out, but they did not know what happened to these men. They did not say that there was no trial. They could not testify to that.

Senator Sterling. Have you any reason to believe that there was a formal trial?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I believe there was a trial.

Senator Sterling. Do you believe there have been many cases of trials of that kind since you left, in January, 1918?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. Do you not believe that many death penalties have been inflicted without trial?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not.

Senator Sterling. Have you reason to believe that the death penalty has been inflicted on men suspected of being anti-Bolshevik without trial?
Miss Bryant. I do not know.

Senator Sterling. You do not know?
Miss Bryant. No; I can not say. I was not there.

Mr. Humes. Do they have a jury in those trials?
Miss Bryant. They have a revolutionary tribunal, who sit in front of a table, just as these people sit along here [indicating the members of the committee], and bear the testimony of various people.

Mr. Humes. It is more like a court-martial?
Miss Bryant. Yes; it was more like a court-martial. In the cases that I saw tried the penalties were very mild, indeed. We were rather surprised, because we anticipated that in the fervor of the moment perhaps the guillotine would be set up, like in the French Revolution, and we were very much surprised to see that they dismissed these people often with a sentence like, “We turn you over to the contempt of the people,” and things like that.

Senator Nelson. They had plenty of cases to mention?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Is it possible that the guillotine has been established in Russia as a means of inflicting the death penalty?
Miss Bryant. No; I have never heard of it. Because in the French Revolution they had the guillotine, I wondered if they would.

Mr. Humes. Do you speak Russian?
Miss Bryant. A little, and I can understand it.

Senator Sterling. The matter of establishing the guillotine was discussed, was it not?
Miss Bryant. I suppose it was.

Senator Sterling. It was discussed by some of the Bolshevik leaders, was it not?
Miss Bryant. It was discussed, but nobody ever was in favor of it.

Senator Sterling. Nobody ever was in favor of it?
Miss Bryant. People spoke in heated moments of establishing it, but then everyone said “No, we will not countenance that.”

Senator Sterling. Did some of the leaders speak about establishing it?
Miss Bryant. There was a newspaper story, when I was in Russia, to the effect that Trotzky said, “If conditions get any worse, if there is any more terror on the part of the White Guard, we will establish the guillotine.”

Mr. Humes. Did not conditions get worse, and did they not establish the guillotine?
Miss Bryant. No; they never have. Did any witness testify that they had?

Mr. Humes. No; I asked you if they did.
Miss Bryant. No; and I do not believe anybody testified to that.

Mr. Humes. I am just asking you if they did.
Miss Bryant. I do not believe so.

Mr. Humes. Did you use an interpreter?
Miss Bryant. Yes; sometimes.

Mr. Humes. Who was the interpreter?
Miss Bryant. I had various ones. I sometimes had this man Gumberg, who was also used by Sisson; but as there were always Russians that spoke English, like all these leaders, we did not need them even at first.

Mr. Humes. You said something about the schools.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Will you give us the exact location of any school that you know of being in operation?
Miss Bryant. I can do better than that. I can give you the name of a witness who can tell you all about it.

Mr. Humes. I mean the location of one that you saw when you were there, a school that was in operation.
Miss Bryant. I was there in the winter, and the schools were not going at that time, even in Kerensky’s time. Later on some opened in Petrograd — the ordinary schools — and the new schools were just being established.

Mr. Humes. Up to the time you left they had not gotten the schools organized and opened yet?
Miss Bryant. No; some of the schools were running, but they had not established the new ones. But I know that many new ones were established, because Mrs. Tobenson, whose husband was head of the far-eastern soviet, and who started the workers’ institute in Chicago — a Russian — told me a great deal about the schools, and she is in New York, and I am sure would be glad to testify, and she told me much about the schools; in fact, she even taught in one of them.

Mr. Humes. Is Tobenson a member of the government now in Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and he was the head of the far-eastern soviet.

Mr. Humes. He came from Chicago?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. You did not mention him a while ago as one of the members of the government who had been in the United States?
Miss Bryant. You said those that I saw, Russians that I saw, and I never saw him in my life. I could not say that I had seen him when I had not seen him. I only know his wife.

Mr. Humes. All right; but he came from Chicago?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. Now, you say you were in Petrograd and in Moscow?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. You were not out among the peasants, were you?
Miss Bryant. I never spent much time among them.

Mr. Humes. You spent a great deal of time in Petrograd and Moscow?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Mr. Humes. You never went out in one of those mirs and saw them there?
Miss Bryant. There were no mirs.

Mr. Humes. So that the only peasants you know about are the ones that came into Petrograd and Moscow, and you saw in that way?
Miss Bryant. Yes; and at the great peasant congresses.

Mr. Humes. The ones that came into Petrograd and Moscow were connected with the Bolshevik government in some way, were they not?
Miss Bryant. Not always. Even after the Kerensky government they came in to the great peasant congresses. They met there all the time.

Senator Overman. Is it proposed by the Bolshevik government to nationalize their government all over, in all countries, in this country and others; and have you heard about their sending propaganda to this country?
Miss Bryant. Yes; I have heard a good deal about that. It is the socialist idea to have a socialist world.

Senator Overman. Part of their program is sending missionaries here and all through the world?
Miss Bryant. I do not know whether it is or not. I have said there is a great deal of talk about it in our American press.

Senator Overman. In talking with Trotzky, was that his purpose?
Miss Bryant. He did not ever discuss anything of that kind with me.

Senator Wolcott. It is in some of their decrees, showing that that is their purpose.
Senator Overman. Yes.

Senator Sterling. You speak about these peasant congresses.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Sterling. How many of these peasant congresses were held at the time while you were there at Petrograd?
Miss Bryant. Two, and the peasants came from all over Russia.

Senator Sterling. You say you attended those congresses?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Nelson. How many were there?
Miss Bryant. Two.

Senator Nelson. How many people attended, I mean?
Miss Bryant. Thousands of peasants from all over Russia.

Senator Nelson. Thousands?
Miss Bryant. Yes; delegates from all over Russia.

Senator Sterling. What did they discuss there?
Miss Bryant. They discussed land, peace, and bread, and showed great dissatisfaction that under the Kerensky government the land was not distributed; that the land committees were not distributing the land, and they protested against it all the time.

Senator Sterling. Yes; then they were protesting against the failure to distribute the land to the individual peasants, were they not?
Miss Bryant. No; they were not.

Senator Sterling. They were not?
Miss Bryant. They were not asking for individual ownership, and at each of those congresses I would like to point out that they went off to Smolny to make their declarations, and at one time Lenine came down and spoke to them — just after the soviets came into power over the Kerensky government — and they marched with Lenine up to the Smolny Institute, where the Bolshevik headquarters were, to show their approval and their solidarity.

Senator Sterling. When was that?
Miss Bryant. That was in November, just after the revolution.

Senator Sterling. Before the revolution?
Miss Bryant. After; you see, at that time they were not all in favor of the Bolsheviki; they were social revolutionists. Many of the right wing¾

Senator Sterling. They were with the Whites?
Miss Bryant. No; right, not white.

Senator Sterling. They were not Bolsheviki at that time?
Miss Bryant. No; and they are not now. They are simply working with the soviet government; just as you could not say that the Republicans here are Democrats. But the majority are now left wingers.

Senator Sterling. I understood you to say a while ago that all the peasants were Bolsheviki.
Miss Bryant. No; I said they were in the government of the Bolsheviki; that the Bolsheviki are just a political party; that they are just a political party.

Mr. Humes. What percentage of the provinces of Russia comes under the control of the soviet government? By that I mean what part does the present government control?
Miss Bryant. All except the Cadets.

Mr. Humes. No; you misunderstand me.
Miss Bryant. Yes?

Mr. Humes. All Russia, geographically speaking, has not accepted and recognized the present soviet government, has it?
Miss Bryant. Well, it could not if it wanted to.

Mr. Humes. Why not?
Miss Bryant. Because part of it is under allied control, and they have destroyed the soviets.

Mr. Humes. The part that is not under allied control?
Miss Bryant. The part that is not under allied control I should certainly say was under soviet domination, all of it.

Mr. Humes. All of it?
Miss Bryant. All of it, so far as I know.

Mr. Humes. In your opinion it is?
Miss Bryant. Yes; it is largely.

Mr. Humes. Except where there are allied troops?
Miss Bryant. Yes; all of great Russia.

Mr. Humes. It is under the control of the present soviet government?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. You said all of great Russia. You are excluding Siberia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; because a good part of Siberia is under the control of the allied troops. They have overthrown the soviets.

Senator Wolcott. The allied troops are not covering much territory at this time.
Miss Bryant. Apart from that, I suppose it is all under the soviets. It was.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know that not to exceed one-fourth of European Russia is under the control of the present government and recognizes the present government in any way?
Miss Bryant. What part of it does not?

Mr. Humes. I say, is it not a fact that only about one-fourth of it does recognize the present government?
Miss Bryant. All of great Russia does recognize it.

Mr. Humes. Do you know that?
Miss Bryant. No; I do not know any more than that it did when I was there.

Mr. Humes. You are just assuming.
Miss Bryant. Assuming; yes.

Mr. Humes (continuing. . . ) That because the soviet government is in control of Petrograd and Moscow, therefore the soviet government controls the whole of Russia?
Miss Bryant. Yes; because you see they send delegates in from local soviets from every part of Russia.

Mr. Humes. Do you not know that there is testimony that it has only about one-fourth of Russia?
Miss Bryant. I never understood that. I do not understand it. I do not believe it at all.

Senator Overman. There is a roll call on the floor of the Senate, and we will have to adjourn now.
Senator Wolcott. Before we adjourn, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask just one question.

Senator Overman. Very well.

Senator Wolcott. In order to get it clear in my mind.
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. The so-called Bolshevik revolution was in November, 1917?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. That is when they came in power?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. You left Russia in January, 1918 — the latter part of January?
Miss Bryant. Yes; the latter part. Yes; about the middle or the latter part. I do not remember the exact date.

Senator Wolcott. November, December, January —
Miss Bryant. November, December, and January; probably three months.

Senator Wolcott. More likely two and a half months?
Miss Bryant. Yes.

Senator Wolcott. What day of November was it; November 7th?
Miss Bryant. The very first part of November, I think — about the 6th.

Senator Wolcott. November 7th, I think, was the date, when the Bolsheviki came in.
Miss Bryant. Yes; about then.

Senator Wolcott. So that your information regarding Russia that you have of your own knowledge that was gathered under the Bolshevik régime was gathered in that two and a half months?
Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; the first-hand knowledge was; yes.

Senator Wolcott. What is that?
Miss Bryant. The first-hand knowledge was, of course.

Senator Overman. We will take an adjournment until 10.30 o’clock to-morrow.
Miss Bryant. I am to come back at 10.30?

Senator Overman. Yes. Is there anything else you want to say?
Miss Bryant. There are a few things that I would like to show you. I thought you would like to see them, and a few things I want to say. 

 

 

Source: Brewing and Liquor Interests and German and Bolshevik Propaganda, Reports and Hearings of the Subcommittee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, in Three Volumes, (Washington DC: US Government Printing Office, 1919), pp. 465-561.